9E,XJ,9L TA Rates

[CptMurf]

I disagree. After taking a total of 4 paycuts since 9/11, there's NO reason what so ever why we should be making LESS on the JCBA than what we're making now. That's called a concession.

Uhhhh... I didn't say you were going to take a concession on your JCBA. I was just stating that I seriously doubt the ASA/ExpressJet JCBA will have higher payrates than ExpressJet had in their pre concessionary contract. They will have to use a lot of negotiation capital to secure other items, like scope, and they will not be able to push them back to those levels.

At XJ, we use to have a joke about "On the Dash" or "On the Avro" stories. They got old because the airplane was gone.... never to return. The same thing happens when you take a concession, without a snapback provision. Its gone... never to return. People can make all the "Your payrates don't beat our Pre Concessionary Rates" statements they want, but the fact is they don't have those rates anymore either.

 

[dojetdriver]

Uhhhh... I didn't say you were going to take a concession on your JCBA. I was just stating that I seriously doubt the ASA/ExpressJet JCBA will have higher payrates than ExpressJet had in their pre concessionary contract. They will have to use a lot of negotiation capital to secure other items, like scope, and they will not be able to push them back to those levels.

At XJ, we use to have a joke about "On the Dash" or "On the Avro" stories. They got old because the airplane was gone.... never to return. The same thing happens when you take a concession, without a snapback provision. Its gone... never to return. People can make all the "Your payrates don't beat our Pre Concessionary Rates" statements they want, but the fact is they don't have those rates anymore either.

You're missing the point. I was quoting a guy that said the rates on the TA should be the baseline for the XJT/ASA JCBA going forward. NO, THEY SHOULD NOT. Why use a rate that you're currently above as a baseline?

Using XJT's pre concession rate isn't unrealistic at all. Especially with all the management talk about how much money is going to be made with the "synergies" involved.

 

[higney85]

You're missing the point. I was quoting a guy that said the rates on the TA should be the baseline for the XJT/ASA JCBA going forward. NO, THEY SHOULD NOT. Why use a rate that you're currently above as a baseline?

Using XJT's pre concession rate isn't unrealistic at all. Especially with all the management talk about how much money is going to be made with the "synergies" involved.

Raise the bar far and above, it's expected. If you only get what this TA has you are not "raising the bar". Contracts in an industry such as ours require that each group builds on everyone else, if you don't the industry remains capped while the rest of the free world moves on. Folks seem to have an ego of "my regional is better than yours" and that's all that matters. The truth is that we are all the same union for a reason, we may be competitors in the market but we are all supposed to be working to raise the industry one contract at a time. If the TA was a "worst case" of all that existed in the XJ and 9E contracts the ability for XJT/ASA to move the bar up would be significantly more difficult and improbable.

I WANT to see XJT and ASA have a JCBA that is far and above this, 5 years from now the PNCL group has leverage to move the bar higher than that deal.

I hate to be a broken record but folks really need to read and understand the philosophies involved in the past success of this industry. Read Flying the Line (both of them) and understand how in a pre-911 world progress was made. The concessions are over for now, but all must go back to "what works" and make it happen.

 

[BoilerUP]

"Pattern bargaining" seems to be a foreign concept to many these days...

 

[dojetdriver]

Raise the bar far and above, it's expected. If you only get what this TA has you are not "raising the bar". Contracts in an industry such as ours require that each group builds on everyone else, if you don't the industry remains capped while the rest of the free world moves on. Folks seem to have an ego of "my regional is better than yours" and that's all that matters. The truth is that we are all the same union for a reason, we may be competitors in the market but we are all supposed to be working to raise the industry one contract at a time. If the TA was a "worst case" of all that existed in the XJ and 9E contracts the ability for XJT/ASA to move the bar up would be significantly more difficult and improbable.

I WANT to see XJT and ASA have a JCBA that is far and above this, 5 years from now the PNCL group has leverage to move the bar higher than that deal.

I hate to be a broken record but folks really need to read and understand the philosophies involved in the past success of this industry.

THANK YOU!!!! I'm glad somebody can get it.

Read Flying the Line (both of them) and understand how in a pre-911 world progress was made. The concessions are over for now, but all must go back to "what works" and make it happen.

I was going to mention this, it's referred to as "jacking up the house" in that book.

 

[WayBack]

Can someone please explain to me why the Mesaba SF340 pilots are making more than Colgan SF340 pilots?
Am I correct, their under the same contract, same company, but yet they are making far less?

 

[WTF-Over]

Can someone please explain to me why the Mesaba SF340 pilots are making more than Colgan SF340 pilots?
Am I correct, their under the same contract, same company, but yet they are making far less?

Because the original Colgan rates were so low that to bring them up to XJ rates all at once was a bigger hit to 9E corprate books then they were willing to take all at once. So They spread it out over a few years, so by the end of the contract the Colgan rates should match up with current XJ rates.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Part of the problem with the rates you guys seem to be having is that you are missing just how much the rates ar Colgan and Pinnacle have to be raised just to get to the current Mesaba rates. I certainly would like to have Horizon Q rates now, Higher 200 and 900 rates that some of you guys say you have now (I don't know). But the fact is giving a 50% raise to some and 25 to 45% to others just doesn't happen especially when you want scope, extension protection, ...

Now when you get everyone up on the same list, same contract, fix some injustices (blended FO rates), extension language (I happen to be really concerned about this Highney but if your happy I can be). Even if there are some hard things to swallow it's a victory. Not setting a new high. Not trend setting. But Not settling for less. Colgan isn't a bottom feeder, Pinnacle starts to get protections...ALL the FO could take longer to upgrade.

Pinnacle gets a signing bonus.
Mesaba has people Flowing to Delta (more upgrades for FO's)
Colgan...it really will be a different world.

I am not even reluctant in my yes.

 

[Nevets]

Uhhhh... I didn't say you were going to take a concession on your JCBA. I was just stating that I seriously doubt the ASA/ExpressJet JCBA will have higher payrates than ExpressJet had in their pre concessionary contract. They will have to use a lot of negotiation capital to secure other items, like scope, and they will not be able to push them back to those levels.

Just wanted to point out that the scope language has already been negotiated as part of the transition and process agreement. We already used much negotiating capital for it by playing nice and not trying to force the one list issue. That attitude can always change until a JCBA is ratified. The concession was 6.87% or $10M per year.

At XJ, we use to have a joke about "On the Dash" or "On the Avro" stories. They got old because the airplane was gone.... never to return. The same thing happens when you take a concession, without a snapback provision. Its gone... never to return. People can make all the "Your payrates don't beat our Pre Concessionary Rates" statements they want, but the fact is they don't have those rates anymore either.

Also, we do have snapback provisions. One or two that are supposedly being looked at by the MEC to see if they've been triggered.

 

[CptMurf]

Just wanted to point out that the scope language has already been negotiated as part of the transition and process agreement. We already used much negotiating capital for it by playing nice and not trying to force the one list issue. That attitude can always change until a JCBA is ratified. The concession was 6.87% or $10M per year.



Also, we do have snapback provisions. One or two that are supposedly being looked at by the MEC to see if they've been triggered.

Glad to hear it... I know absolutly nothing of ExpressJet or their contract. More than anything, and not trying to defend the TA, I am just pointing out that the PNCL TA is descent. It benefits most of the pilots on the list, and rectifies a lot of their respective contractual problems. It is not, and probably won't be the highest paying regional out there. But 2 of the groups have made radical steps off the bottom floor of this part of the industry. It also sets pay equal to or higher than your merger partner ASA. It is easy to say this TA does not equal up to anyones pre concessionary contract, and that we should strive for more. But this TA in NO WAY, hurts the industry or "lowers the bar." And considering how far the groups moved forward, I believe this is a good TA for them/us.