9E, 9L, XJ JCBA Deadline Extension

[Smarta$$]

I see you write this at least once a day, getting sick of it yet??? We both know nothing is ever going to change...

Yes, very sick of it. I usually write it in response to someone in context. In never changed at ASA/NWA... until... it finally did.

 

[CptMurf]

In never changed at ASA/NWA... until... it finally did.

I spent about 20 minutes Googling some type of an organized NWA slowdown or Chaos.... The only thing I found was for some mechanics in '98 and the FA's Chaos. I don't remember them doing anything either. You have a backstory to this, or preferably a link?

I admit it worked at ASA, they got the first descent contract in a post 9-11 enviornment. But again this was section 6 negotiations, you ended those about 47 days ago when our unions agreed to negotiate a JCBA. If the JCBA fails, you will go back to the NMB where you were in the process. This however is a NEW negotiation, with it's own timeline.

This quote reads a lot like "It will be done when it's done."

 

[Smarta$$]

I spent about 20 minutes Googling some type of an organized NWA slowdown or Chaos.... The only thing I found was for some mechanics in '98 and the FA's Chaos. I don't remember them doing anything either. You have a backstory to this, or preferably a link?

I admit it worked at ASA, they got the first descent contract in a post 9-11 enviornment. But again this was section 6 negotiations, you ended those about 47 days ago when our unions agreed to negotiate a JCBA. If the JCBA fails, you will go back to the NMB where you were in the process. This however is a NEW negotiation, with it's own timeline.

This quote reads a lot like "It will be done when it's done."

NWA I am referring to is the post BK contract where the narrow body NWA pilots lost block or better and had some other contract provisions they did not like. What insued shortly after was a slow taxi/sick call/MX write up campaign that got them improvements to their BK contract in short time. I am sorry you don't remember the slow taxing DC9s and A320s from 3-4 years ago. But it DID happen and it DID work like a charm, and they WERE NOT in section 6.

This not being section 6 is irrelevant. There is nothing in section 6 that allows work-to-rule actions anyway. If the company feels tremendous operational pressure during these JCBA negotiations, they can also assume that they will feel as much or more pressure if we go back to our section 6 negotiations which is the plan if this falls apart. Operational pressure now will be a shot across the bow for these AND subsequent section 6 negotiations (should they be necessary). Its negotiations just the same. We are not asking for anything earth shattering just because you guys are here. This is still 6 years for us, and it will always be 6 years for US no matter what type of negotiations you call it. Our negotiators already have determined what contract adjustments are needed to accommodate the 3 airlines. Those specific requirements have been given to company management. They simply need to find common ground on our requirements. They are not reinventing the wheel here. While they MAY have been moving in our direction in the final few days, they WASTED considerable amount of time playing games.

We got to 6 years for specific reasons, and so far, we are repeating those same actions/in-actions.

You, represent and advocate those same actions/in-actions.

 

[CptMurf]

Unable to substantiate one way or the other... I will accept your story. I probably did not notice any slow taxi, because I taxi that way myself. A "Brisk Walk", not 2 kts. under v1 as some seem to.

The fact that were not in section 6 has everything to do with it. See, I have a contract. Its good for about 2 more years. I am bound to it, and as my union states at the end every email, "Fly the Contract." They have not called for work actions, and have stated in the past that if an individual is caught in an individual "work action" the union will not be able to protect them. We followed these rules while negotiating our '04 and BK agreements, and were able to attain a good contract. That should not be read that we are scared to use them, or wouldn't use them, it just means that we realize it should be a rational, coordinated effort, called for and supported by ALL union members.

You on the other hand do not have a contract. Your are bound under the RLA to continue operating by the previous contract. But when we entered into negotiations of the JCBA our collective unions and the company, stated and recognized that we would negotiate a JCBA with terms no less favorable than our current terms. For 9E the TA was accepted as the current terms. At that point, although you have suffered and worked towards a passable TA for 6 years, those negotiations were paused until the JCBA was signed or abandoned.

The negotiations at this point should be just merging the best of all 3 labor groups current contracts into a JCBA, this is necessary so that no one labor group has to give up any negotiated contract items. This is how the DAL/NWA worked also, and what raised the pay for NWA and workrules for DAL. I have talked to my reps and negotiators. I understand that mgmt. has resisted in some areas, but overall there is and has been movement in all areas. And they seem confident a unified JCBA can be negotiated with this mgmt. team, but that deadlines will not push them into a subpar contract.

If you feel so strongly that we are all weak and a "work action" is needed, then go do it. Go slow it all down by yourself. See if that attains your goal. I'll stay here with the rest of the pilot group and work as a team member for the greater good.

 

[xjhawk]

The JCBA is not section 6 negotiations. Which is why the 9E MEC email states that is the JCBA falls through, that you would return to independent negotiations. I know it feels the same to you, and I understand why you are saying it feels like the XJ guys are not behind you, but you need to understand the difference in these negotiations vs the one you have been in for 6 years. The JCBA negotiations have been very productive, and the negotiators are hopeful for a conclusion soon after negotiations resume. Several sections have been improved over what 9E was unable to attain in the TA. The XJ guys are interested in attaining a contract that is good for all of us, and it will be better than what you saw in the TA. It is not time to be militant, which is why you don't see militant XJ folks. There is a time and place, we're not there yet. Give the negotiators time.

Well said.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

There is NO Mesaba militants. Hence my tag quote below. It is not the leadership that is the primary problem, it is the RANK AND FILE of Pinnacle. Never EVER have I met such a group of PU$$IES in my life. They will take ANY and ALL abuse and be taken advantage of OVER and OVER and OVER, and do nothing. Makes me sick.

I am curious what EXACTLY you would like us to do? Call in sick. Write everything up. Drop the brake 1 minute late. Wow that is really cutting edge. I wonder what you're negotiations would have be like had you not done these things. 6 years...Man, it really helped.

You really need to be careful. The American Airlines union was nearly gutted when they they lost the case about the illegal work action.
Now I choose NOT to use Pinnacle's past as an example of what we Mesaba people should do for anything. I trust our union guys and when my MEC tells me to do something THEN I will act.

 

[Smarta$$]

Staggering ignorance.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Staggering ignorance.

I didn't attack you. Say what you think. I don't have an answer. What can we XJ people do that the 9E people haven't done for themselves over the past 6 years that would really make a difference?

Rollover. We were in bankruptcy. We had a gun to our heads. We held a pretty tight line. We didn't get good things in the deal, we didn't reverse injustices of the past. A lot of what we agreed to was a gamble. I think we won in the deal and in 14 days I will get a 4% raise because of it.

Staggering ignorance. Well OK. Again I ask you sincerely what are we supposed to do? Don't just point fingers and call people names. I hate it when people complain but never step up to the plate and become involved with the Union. I can't believe the 9E guys have capitulated to a point that they would vote in any old piece of tripe just to get a little cash.

I remember thinking during my new hire days that I was going to push for de-certifying the union at Mesaba. But I educated myself and during the bankruptcy I grew a STAGGERING amount of respect for our MEC and Negotiating Committee. Now I don't personally like MN. But I will support him and I can sleep at night knowing while not perfect my vote got our current / bankruptcy LOA in place.

I am not entirely sure that DC-9 guys practically taxiing backwards had much to do with their raises. That would most likely have been an illegal work action should NWA pursue the matter. That would have been dumb.

So I am sitting here waiting for your intelligent response. I know my union people read these posts, just as the management does. So again what do you want us to do?

 

[Mel Sharples]

Staggering ignorance.

So let me get this straight...

You are mad because your own pilots haven't stood up and become militant after 6 years of failed negotiations?

You are mad at XJ pilots because we haven't started some sort of CHAOS campaign because a company imposed deadline passed without a JCBA?

You are mad because the JNC has agreed to extend the deadline because they are making a lot of progress towards getting a JCBA?

Sounds to me like you are mad at everyone else because you aren't happy with your station in life. As someone else said, if you want to write it up/be late/whatever, don't let me stop you. You just can't expect everyone else to do the same when we haven't hit Defcon-4 yet.

Somehow I don't think you will end up happy out of this no matter what happens. In any event, the Pinnacle pilots have had a say in this all along. Getting mad at the XJ pilots for allegedly not being militant because your own brothers won't be is pretty narrow minded.

I think the XJ group's negotiating style and results speak for themselves. Just point your finger in anger at the right group of people.

 

[RJLoser]

You guys/gals will sooner or later understand.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

I don't get it. If you understand so much better and there are things to do - how come 9E guys haven't secured a new contract?

I am not accusing. I mean get released, go on strike, and we will stop flying. What more can you do than fly the contract. If you're sick - call in. FAA requires it. Doesn't matter how many sick calls you have. If it breaks write it up. Fatigued call it. How is this unusual?

When we switch to 9e officially that's how I will run my aircraft. If the company fires me, then I call the union, then the FAA.

So you guys are saying that 9E guys are flying broken airplanes, sick, and fatigued? Maybe you're right, there is a problem. I am just not sure I can fix your issue. But I know that most pilots at XJ have no problem doing any of this.

 

[xjlifer]

I remember now....it was "what about Bob"

 

[xjgearbtch]

Its so simple fly the contract that's it. The union isn't asking for You to conduct job actions. You are screwing with their negotiating power by doing so. If this goes into arbitration. The company will cry we can't make a profit margin with the current contract the proposed will be even worse. Just fly the contract keep your anger issues at home. We don't need that in the cockpit. Let the union do their job representing you. They can do it much better then you and you self imposed Chaos.

 

[SEVEN]

For the SmartA$$

From the information provided at the MEM LEC meeting last night, things look quite positive. When everything is done it looks like we'll have a decent contract, but they were pretty clear that this won't be Christmas for us like it will be for the other two groups, especially Colgan.

Some topics discussed:
- 11 Days off
- 9E vacation slide
- XJ short-term/long-term disability
- XJ 401k
- 9E Health Insurance, pilot contribution at %25
- 75% Deadhead pay
- 9E-like PBS
- XJ type post-amendable % raises
- 5 year duration
- 5 hour/day for training days
- Being able to go three days below min days off (a compromise)
- Being able to pick up open time on vacation
- Keeping min day
- Leg guarantee in place of trip guarantee
- Pay rates
- Keeping sim training/checking/LCAs in-house, letting ground training be done by contractors
- Biddable dual-qual reserve only lines w/extra days off

Some of the above has been TAed, and some is still on the table. Seniority List Integration was also discussed, but since this cannot occur until 29 days AFTER a TA is reached there really isn't much to talk about.

 

[AiRegency]

Hey Se7en, could you clarify these two points you just made:

-Being able to go three days below min days off (a compromise)
-Keeping min day

I'm hoping this means that the company cannot force you to go below min days but that at the pilots discretion you could choose to. Is that correct?