9E, 9L, XJ JCBA Deadline Extension

[CptMurf]

Hey Se7en, could you clarify these two points you just made:

-Being able to go three days below min days off (a compromise)
-Keeping min day

I'm hoping this means that the company cannot force you to go below min days but that at the pilots discretion you could choose to. Is that correct?

-Being able to go three days below min days off (a compromise)
XJ has a min of 11 days off a month, but you can reduce yourself to 1 day below the min (ie. 10 days off) if you are picking up open time. At 9E (From what I was told) you can reduce yourself up to 1 day off in 7. The JCBA compromises these 2 sections and allows you to reduce yourself up to 3 days below min for the month.

-Keeping min day
XJ has a minimum of 4 hrs pay per day. So lets say you are only scheduled to fly (or DH) 1 leg worth 1:30, you would still get 4:00 for the day. If you show up you get that, even if your flight cancels. When we got this we were looking at some of the other regionals rigs, most of those look back at the average of the trip. Whereas ours is on a day by day basis. ie If you fly 6 hrs the first day and 2 hrs the second at Comair (I believe), you daily average is 4 hrs and you gain nothing. At XJ you would get 6 hrs for the first day and 4 hrs for the second and would gain 2 hrs of pay.

2 Seperate issues here. Post was written in XJ slang though.

 

[Ridgeback]

9E Health Insurance, pilot contribution at %25

Would a 9E guy please chime in....Is this ALOT! worse than you have now....at Mesaba we are at 30% and it cost $360/month vs your $150/Month...plus 9's insurance is WAY better in terms of bennifits...

 

[Ridgeback]

- XJ type post-amendable % raises
- 5 year duration

So if post-amendable % raises are contract 04 recapture does this mean in 2015 I'll still be getting paid what I should have been pain in 04? Not to mention add another six years with 9e Mgt tatics..

I'm failing to see what makes this an improvment from what we already have?

 

[CptMurf]

- XJ type post-amendable % raises
- 5 year duration

So if post-amendable % raises are contract 04 recapture does this mean in 2015 I'll still be getting paid what I should have been pain in 04? Not to mention add another six years with 9e Mgt tatics..

I'm failing to see what makes this an improvment from what we already have?

I think he means the 3% cola raise built into the restructuring agreement, not the snapbacks. There is less reason for mgmt. to stretch out negotiations if we are getting raises every year regardless.

 

[Ridgeback]

- XJ type post-amendable % raises
- 5 year duration

So if post-amendable % raises are contract 04 recapture does this mean in 2015 I'll still be getting paid what I should have been pain in 04? Not to mention add another six years with 9e Mgt tatics..

I'm failing to see what makes this an improvment from what we already have?

copied from APC
Pilots only have 1 plan. It's the best of all the company plans and is $150/mo for family (married or with kids) or 3% up to $30/mo for single.

Am I reading this right...mesaba currently 30% 9e Currently 3% and we meet in the middle at %25 WTF!!!

 

[CptMurf]

9E Health Insurance, pilot contribution at %25

Would a 9E guy please chime in....Is this ALOT! worse than you have now....at Mesaba we are at 30% and it cost $360/month vs your $150/Month...plus 9's insurance is WAY better in terms of bennifits...

Does this help you? https://www.employeebenefitswebsite.com/pinnacle/bypass.php?tier=10

 

[Ridgeback]

I thought the bi carrot for the Mesaba guys was 9E's health care???

 

[higney85]

STOP for one moment on the insurance and get the facts please. That quote from APC was written by me.

At 9E current book:
Single pilot cost= 3% of EARNINGS up to a $30/mo cap.
Family (to include husband/wife or husband/wife + 5 kids-all the same)= $150/mo.

Copays of $10 physicians and $25 for ER.
Rx= $5generic/ $10 brand name

Max out of pocket costs are $1700 single/ $3400 family a year (I think those numbers are right).

25% of the plan cost would put premiums alone between 200-250 bucks, all other associated costs would go up as well. This (in current form) is the jewel for 9E pilots and is the #1 thing mgmt wants to change for obvious reasons.

 

[Ridgeback]

STOP for one moment on the insurance and get the facts please. That quote from APC was written by me.

At 9E current book:
Single pilot cost= 3% of EARNINGS up to a $30/mo cap.
Family (to include husband/wife or husband/wife + 5 kids-all the same)= $150/mo.

Copays of $10 physicians and $25 for ER.
Rx= $5generic/ $10 brand name

Max out of pocket costs are $1700 single/ $3400 family a year (I think those numbers are right).

25% of the plan cost would put premiums alone between 200-250 bucks, all other associated costs would go up as well. This (in current form) is the jewel for 9E pilots and is the #1 thing mgmt wants to change for obvious reasons.

Im'm happy you responed then. Seems to me this is a non-negonatable item on the list. This is like scope...once the geni is out you'll never put it back in. I hope the JCN isn't going to give ground on this one!!!

 

[i fly boxes]

What's this dual qual reserve thing. That scares me right away. It better have big time rules put in place as to what you can fly in one day

 

[Raskal]

XJ has a 33% cap, 9e currently at 12% which is believed to be the best industry wide at the moment(just heard the union leadership presentation in recurrent yesterday). Going to 25%, which is apparently pretty much wrapped, is what is going to provide for all the other advancements in the TA. That is a considerable jump in cost for 9e pilots and an improvement for us at XJ...I sincerely hope that the other gains for the pinnacle side are worth it otherwise this thing is likely DOA.

 

[higney85]

25% won't pass the 9E MEC. And dual qual... First I'm hearing about that.

 

[redflyer65]

Seems like a possible stalemate. Maybe another 5 years will help to work things out. But keep the ontime rate high to help Phil make that country club payment.

 

[Smarta$$]

Seems like a possible stalemate. Maybe another 5 years will help to work things out. But keep the ontime rate high to help Phil make that country club payment.

Save your breath.

 

[Raskal]

25% won't pass the 9E MEC. And dual qual... First I'm hearing about that.

we'll see, the healthcare is something the company is desperate to change so a lot of leverage is possible from that.

The dual-qual thing was talked about too, currently there is talk of some sort of voluntary/TDY type dual-qual reserve positions that involve more pay. That could be a good thing for some guys.

The union's point was that there are a number of ways at negotiating items rather than just yes/no. Surprisingly enough, I was a bit encouraged after the whole thing.

 

[altimaklr]

If a 9E FO pays $30 a month for health care, and suddenly has to pay $250/month, pay rates will need to go up $3/hr just to bring things back to even. This would be a very hard sell.

 

[RJLoser]

If a 9E FO pays $30 a month for health care, and suddenly has to pay $250/month, pay rates will need to go up $3/hr just to bring things back to even. This would be a very hard sell.

Higney????

 

[higney85]

Higney????

I'll be the guy who asks a question to a question....

How can you approve something that would be a net LOSS with a NEW contract?

If pay goes up some, that's a gain. If healthcare goes up so much you have a decrease in take home pay, that's a problem.

 

[CptMurf]

If a 9E FO pays $30 a month for health care, and suddenly has to pay $250/month, pay rates will need to go up $3/hr just to bring things back to even. This would be a very hard sell.

I think more realistically the numbers are a single 9E FO now pays $15 a paycheck. Under this proposal he would pay approx. $55 a paycheck. A 9E FO on a family plan now pays $75.00 a paycheck. Under the proposal he would pay approx. $150 a paycheck.

XJ guys now pay $60 a paycheck for single and $180 a paycheck for family.

This increase is equal to about $1/hr in pay. Not that I condone any raise in 9Es medical, but let's use real numbers, not made up ones.

 

[CptMurf]

25% won't pass the 9E MEC.

It's foolish to vote down a contract for 1 item in 1 section, you MUST look at the contract as a whole.

By your logic, you would vote down a contract that paid $5.00 an hour for first year FOs, without looking at the 2000 hour a month guarantee.

**The numbers were exaggerated on purpose, to prove the the point**

 

[suupah]

I think more realistically the numbers are a single 9E FO now pays $15 a paycheck. Under this proposal he would pay approx. $55 a paycheck. A 9E FO on a family plan now pays $75.00 a paycheck. Under the proposal he would pay approx. $150 a paycheck.

XJ guys now pay $60 a paycheck for single and $180 a paycheck for family.

This increase is equal to about $1/hr in pay. Not that I condone any raise in 9Es medical, but let's use real numbers, not made up ones.

amazingly a CJC pilot who has the worst pay scale of the three airlines, pays (top tier) 120/check single and about 260 per check family.

ridiculous.

 

[DoinTime]

I think more realistically the numbers are a single 9E FO now pays $15 a paycheck. Under this proposal he would pay approx. $55 a paycheck. A 9E FO on a family plan now pays $75.00 a paycheck. Under the proposal he would pay approx. $150 a paycheck.

XJ guys now pay $60 a paycheck for single and $180 a paycheck for family.

This increase is equal to about $1/hr in pay. Not that I condone any raise in 9Es medical, but let's use real numbers, not made up ones.

That math only reflects the increased cost of the health insurance premiums. If an FO has to actually go to the doctor, he is further disadvantaged. Dental will also be another add on cost that PCL pilots do not currently incur. Its going to take more than a buck an hour on pay scales to keep PCL FOs from taking a pay hit on this new contract. Pay cuts are not going to get this thing ratified.

 

[CptMurf]

That math only reflects the increased cost of the health insurance premiums. If an FO has to actually go to the doctor, he is further disadvantaged. Dental will also be another add on cost that PCL pilots do not currently incur. Its going to take more than a buck an hour on pay scales to keep PCL FOs from taking a pay hit on this new contract. Pay cuts are not going to get this thing ratified.

Well... Since it's not a TA'd, published item, we really don't know that. Even then you maybe talking $1.10-$1.20/hr. The total cost is definitely not $250/month or $3/hr as was alluded to. That was my only point, those figures were way off.

 

[sinkrate]

amazingly a CJC pilot who has the worst pay scale of the three airlines, pays (top tier) 120/check single and about 260 per check family.

ridiculous.

Someone should post what Mesaba's and Colgan's deductibles, max out of pocket limits and co-pays are. At Pinnacle the most you will pay for health care if you are single is 720 in premiums plus the 1700 max out of pocket for the year. Two years ago one of our pilots ran up over 100K in medical bills in one event and paid 1500 out of his own pocket.

Also keep in mind that out of pocket expenses are after tax. For a CA with a family the annual increase in pay to cover the raised deductible and max limit will need to be 40% more than that just to cover the tax bill.

But this is all irrelevant anyway. The Company is doing this to get a free look at what the Mesaba pilots will ask for in their next section 6 negotiations. If they ask for more than the Company is willing to pay the Company may make other plans.

 

[CptMurf]

XJ...Based on Plan I. We also have an HRA, but this would be closest in comparison with 9E.

80/20
500/1000 single/family deductible
1750/1850 single/family max out of pocket
$20 copay
$10 Generic meds

 

[higney85]

It's foolish to vote down a contract for 1 item in 1 section, you MUST look at the contract as a whole.

By your logic, you would vote down a contract that paid $5.00 an hour for first year FOs, without looking at the 2000 hour a month guarantee.

**The numbers were exaggerated on purpose, to prove the the point**

Fine, vote down my logic. When you put all factors together I wlll not vote in favor of a contract that is a net pay cut. You don't like it? Recall me.

 

[CptMurf]

Fine, vote down my logic. When you put all factors together I wlll not vote in favor of a contract that is a net pay cut. You don't like it? Recall me.

I would hope you vote based on what the pilots you represent want, and not what you personally want. I would not want my reps to vote for a contract that has a NET pay cut either, but I will also look at the contract as a whole before I judge one section as a NET pay cut.

The block or better per leg will add about 3-4 hours credit per month.
The min day will add about 3-4 hours credit per month.
The leg guarantee will protect any loss in credit from a cancellation (never had it, so I won't guess at hrs saved).
The 75% DH pay will add credit to our current pay.
Etc., Etc., Etc.

Overall a $75-$100 increase in medical sounds as a pay cut, but when you look at all the other advances (a lot better than the TA), it's not a pay cut at all. And for the 9L and XJ guys, it's actually a savings.

 

[CoATP]

The leg guarantee will protect any loss in credit from a cancellation (never had it, so I won't guess at hrs saved).

Never had cancellation? How do you bid that in PBS? " Avoid Cancellations 1000 pts"?

 

[CptMurf]

Never had cancellation? How do you bid that in PBS? " Avoid Cancellations 1000 pts"?

No. Right now we have trip guarantee. If a leg cancels we get what the trip is worth. Maybe losing overtime, from block or better per leg.

This new, leg guarantee, would protect pay on a leg by leg basis. If a flight cancels, you would not lose any gained credit. So, I have no idea what that would be worth. But better than what we got now.

 

[e=mc2]

Don't forget about the big tax increase (less take home pay) coming Jan1, thanks to ALPO's man in the white house.
Bottom tax rate from 10% to 15% a 50% increase on most FO's. Thanks ALPO.