9E, 9L, & XJ integration

[SEVEN]

I do have faith in the mesaba MEC/ Pilot group.

You're beginning to see the light. I'm not a big "union guy", but there are times when it's all we got. Our MEC brings experience and a lot of determination. Make no mistake, the lawyers are working overtime to prevent any onslaught by Uncle Phil.

 

[Top Gum]

I get the feeling 9E pilots are out to get us more than 9E management.

I don’t think it's like that at all. No doubt, our management could care less about you but they aren’t “out to get you”.

As far as the pilot group goes, it seems that they just have other priorities at the moment. 9E pilots are overworked, underpaid, and very beat down right now. We have been fighting for a decent contract for years and feel that we have been the backbone of all this money that pinnacle has made over the past 5-6 years.

Instead of the company giving us a contract, pinnacle goes out and strokes checks for other airlines while we are doing without any quality of life. None of our pilots want to see anyone done wrong, we simply have bigger things on our plate than to spend time worrying about everyone else.

 

[kmox29]

...we simply have bigger things on our plate than to spend time worrying about everyone else.

At some point, I hope ALPA and pilots realize that "everyone else" is everyone.

 

[altimaklr]

This is WAY too premature for you to be thinking of a slam dunk for 9E. Highly unlikely that almost 500 pilots will be put on the street as 9E takes all of Mesaba's 900's and 200's. That's a far stretch. I hope your wrong. But from the sounds of many 9E'ers...this is what they want.

9E pilots aren't out to screw XJ guys. Some guys are probably enjoying this a bit after dealing with the sense of superiority XJ pilots have often had over Pinnacle. We know our company better than you, and it's easy to predict what their strategy usually is - the least expensive route possible. The writing is already on the wall with the current stated integration objectives. Almost every 600 or so 9E FO is qualified to upgrade, except a very small number of guys in ATL. They know the seniority crowd at XJ will flee in droves if they are forced to move bases to EWR or IAD when they transfer to Colgan. The furloughs provide a cheap source of CRJ trained labor pool. It's a completely ideal situation for management.

 

[SEVEN]

9E pilots aren't out to screw XJ guys. Some guys are probably enjoying this a bit after dealing with the sense of superiority XJ pilots have often had over Pinnacle. We know our company better than you, and it's easy to predict what their strategy usually is - the least expensive route possible. The writing is already on the wall with the current stated integration objectives. Almost every 600 or so 9E FO is qualified to upgrade, except a very small number of guys in ATL. They know the seniority crowd at XJ will flee in droves if they are forced to move bases to EWR or IAD when they transfer to Colgan. The furloughs provide a cheap source of CRJ trained labor pool. It's a completely ideal situation for management.

You guys just don't get it. There is Labor involved here. It's not that easy to do what all you 9E guys think is going to happen. You'll see very shortly that 1 list will be the most likely scenario.

 

[Flyer1015]

What's to stop this scenario:

Next upcoming vacancies, all super senior pilots at Mesaba will bid to get on the CRJs, if they aren't already there. Who will stay in a turboprop that is slated to be killed end of 2011? So then you have the top top most senior pilots at XJ, all on the jets, looking for *some* way to come over in an asset transfer. Fine. Assume it happens. Just how can you possibly fairly integrate the 9E group with the most top senior Mesaba pilots that will come with the jets? If there is any 10+ year CA at Mesaba on the Saab, he will be bidding for the jet. Your future at the all-jet Pinnacle is far better than the all-prop Mesaba, considering Mesaba will lose the Saabs with the current Delta deal. There is no fair way to integrate a top super senior group within the 9E ranks. As for the comments regarding to let the union MECs deal with this, the 9E MEC sold out FOs twice, once in 2007, and once in 2009. Sorry for not having any faith in this whole thing.

 

[dondk]

You guys just don't get it. There is Labor involved here. It's not that easy to do what all you 9E guys think is going to happen. You'll see very shortly that 1 list will be the most likely scenario.

Please enlighten us all to what LABOR brings to the table?

What can labor tell the BOD that would encourage them to decide in LABOR's favor.

 

[Grinder10]

From another message board:


Excerpt from Mesaba's Section 1 (scope)
D. Transfer of Company Aircraft
1. If the Company or its parent sells, transfers, or disposes of
over forty percent (40%) of the aircraft in the Company’s
fleet (in a single transaction or multi-step transaction within
a rolling twelve (12) month period) as a going concern to an
air carrier, directly or indirectly, the Company or its parent
will, as a condition of the sale, require the purchaser to offer
employment to those pilots assigned to that portion of the
fleet at the time of the sale.
2. The provisions of this paragraph D. shall not apply to (i) the
return of aircraft to the lessor, sublessor, or sub-sublessor
of such aircraft, (ii) retirement of aged aircraft in the
ordinary course of business, (iii) a transfer made at the
direction of a party who has an ownership, leasehold, or
security interest in the aircraft and over which the Company
or its parent has no control, (iv) a transfer in which the
Company or its parent does not receive any direct or
indirect compensation from the transferee for the value of
the aircraft, and (v) any transfer in a bankruptcy, insolvency,
or other similar proceeding.


So it has to be more than 40% not including retired aircraft to trigger the "offer of employment"? According to APC Mesaba currently has 41 900's 19 200's and 28 Saabs for a total of 88 airframes. Colgan currently has 14 Q's and 34 Saabs for a total of 48. Total airframes after the merger will be 136.

40% of 136 is 54. Not quite enough to bring the all of the jets over. However, Colgan will be adding 15 Q's between AUG 2010 and April 2011 to bring the total to 151. 40% of 151 is 60. Mesaba just happens to have 60 jets.

According to paragraph D2 this "The provisions of this paragraph D. shall not apply to (i) thereturn of aircraft to the lessor, sublessor, or sub-sublessor of such aircraft, (ii) retirement of aged aircraft in the ordinary course of business." So (subject to legal interpretation) the retiring of the Saabs will not count towards the 40%?

It looks like the Mesaba pilots are in a really bad spot.

 

[higney85]

Uhh... It's 100%... We are dealing with a holding company and all airframes are involved.

 

[Lear70]

This is gonna take a while. Some things are being forgotten:

Great idea, but regardless of what you come up with it’s not your decision. The man makes the decision. Yes, that sucks but it’s his money and his people will integrate us as best suited for the company, not the pilots or anyone else.

That's not *ENTIRELY* accurate. What management *MIGHT* do right now, or in the new future, may be totally changed by Pinnacle's contract talks, once they re-commence (likely next year). So what changes / integration might happen in the next 90-120 days might only last 6-8 months, depending on the pace of negotiations.

You guys just don't get it. There is Labor involved here. It's not that easy to do what all you 9E guys think is going to happen. You'll see very shortly that 1 list will be the most likely scenario.

I seriously doubt it. Knowing how PCL management operates, I see the likely combination of Colgan and Mesaba as has already been discussed, the transfer of the jets to PCL, and the operation of separate companies as long as management can get away with it (i.e., until negotiations forces one list).

Next upcoming vacancies, all super senior pilots at Mesaba will bid to get on the CRJs, if they aren't already there. Who will stay in a turboprop that is slated to be killed end of 2011? So then you have the top top most senior pilots at XJ, all on the jets, looking for *some* way to come over in an asset transfer. Fine. Assume it happens. Just how can you possibly fairly integrate the 9E group with the most top senior Mesaba pilots that will come with the jets? If there is any 10+ year CA at Mesaba on the Saab, he will be bidding for the jet. Your future at the all-jet Pinnacle is far better than the all-prop Mesaba, considering Mesaba will lose the Saabs with the current Delta deal. There is no fair way to integrate a top super senior group within the 9E ranks.

Most accurate post thus far.

Excerpt from Mesaba's Section 1 (scope)
D. Transfer of Company Aircraft
1. If the Company or its parent sells, transfers, or disposes of
over forty percent (40%) of the aircraft in the Company’s
fleet (in a single transaction or multi-step transaction within
a rolling twelve (12) month period) as a going concern to an
air carrier, directly or indirectly, the Company or its parent
will, as a condition of the sale, require the purchaser to offer
employment to those pilots assigned to that portion of the
fleet at the time of the sale.
2. The provisions of this paragraph D. shall not apply to (i) the
return of aircraft to the lessor, sublessor, or sub-sublessor
of such aircraft, (ii) retirement of aged aircraft in the
ordinary course of business, (iii) a transfer made at the
direction of a party who has an ownership, leasehold, or
security interest in the aircraft and over which the Company
or its parent has no control, (iv) a transfer in which the
Company or its parent does not receive any direct or
indirect compensation from the transferee for the value of
the aircraft, and (v) any transfer in a bankruptcy, insolvency,
or other similar proceeding.


So it has to be more than 40% not including retired aircraft to trigger the "offer of employment"? According to APC Mesaba currently has 41 900's 19 200's and 28 Saabs for a total of 88 airframes. Colgan currently has 14 Q's and 34 Saabs for a total of 48. Total airframes after the merger will be 136.

40% of 136 is 54. Not quite enough to bring the all of the jets over. However, Colgan will be adding 15 Q's between AUG 2010 and April 2011 to bring the total to 151. 40% of 151 is 60. Mesaba just happens to have 60 jets.

According to paragraph D2 this "The provisions of this paragraph D. shall not apply to (i) thereturn of aircraft to the lessor, sublessor, or sub-sublessor of such aircraft, (ii) retirement of aged aircraft in the ordinary course of business." So (subject to legal interpretation) the retiring of the Saabs will not count towards the 40%?

It looks like the Mesaba pilots are in a really bad spot.

Ahhh, one of the meat and bones of the issue. You're forgetting, however, one important thing. PCL wasn't Mesaba holdings. By selling Mesaba to Pinnacle, without successorship language, that paragraph will likely become null and void. Don't think so? Ask yourself how every OTHER end-run around Scope protections has been accomplished in the last decade. PCL management ALREADY DID THIS with Colgan, the language was very clear, and management got away with it. It will happen again,,, you're simply being naive if you think it won't.

What WILL be interesting is the reciprocal letter of Agreement between Mesaba and Pinnacle. THIS is where job protections will come into play. "If any one company suffers a loss of flying and/or aircraft and the OTHER company gains a windfall of flying and/or aircraft, the pilots will have the ability to transfer companies".

I highly suggest you guys to look at that LOA. It was inked while I was still there, and I guarantee you that if they shift a large number of the RJ's over to PCL, it *WILL* trigger this LOA, as it *SHOULD*.

Don't get the idea that I'm against Mesaba pilots, I have a LOT of friends over there, as well as a LOT of friends still at PCL. I'm just dealing in reality here... and the reality is that, short-term, you'd better get used to the idea of an asset transfer without integration by anything other than that LOA. If management can figure out a way to bring as few pilots over and take the most junior pilots they can get, they certainly will. I wouldn't be surprised to see a seat lock for that trigger effective on the day the sale was announced. I also wouldn't be surprised to see management say that if you change companies, it voids your flow-through rights.

You heard it here first...

 

[xjgearbtch]

Lear70 the LOA will not be applied. The LOA applies to an agreement between two separate companies. We are now owned by one company, this is a merger. The 3 MEC chairman, ALPA national and lawyers are applying their energy this week towards a fair merger between all three pilot groups. They will be meeting on the 29th in DC with the Pinnacle management to discuss.

The agreement to recall furloughed Mesaba employees completely negates the LOA.

"There will be no interview process for either carrier[REQUIRED BY LOA]; however, the pilot will be required to pass a background check, PRIA evaluation, a pre-employment drug screening, and any other evaluation as required by law. Additionally, the pilot will be treated as a new-hire for the respective airline’s seniority purposes (bidding), but will maintain their Mesaba longevity for pay, probationary concerns, vacation accrual, future seniority integration, etc [First Officers will begin to receive longevity credit commencing on the vacancy effective dates as provided in A.1.d. above.]

The pilot maintains a Mesaba seniority number for the entire duration of employment at either carrier, and will be treated as a Mesaba pilot for future recall and/or seniority list integration purposes. There will be no penalty if the pilot chooses not to accept an offer at either carrier. Current class dates are outlined in XJ Memo 10-45, and employment offers will be extended in seniority order.

Furloughed Mesaba pilots will have the ability to bypass a carrier’s class offer and go to the other carrier if they so choose; i.e., if Pinnacle calls first with a class date, the pilot may bypass the offer and wait for Colgan and vice versa. There will be no obligation to accept an employment offer at either company and this will not affect their furlough rights at Mesaba.

Pinnacle may offer a short-course for previously qualified CRJ pilots, and a long-course for pilots who do not have CRJ experience. As indicated above, employment offers will be in Mesaba seniority order at both airlines. However, training may be conducted out of seniority order to accommodate the differing training courses."

CAN'T just pick and choose which parts of the LOA to apply. Give it time the unions will do what is right with the Merger. The LOA is not applicable.

 

[Lear70]

The agreement to recall furloughed Mesaba employees completely negates the LOA.

So you negotiated away the prior LOA to be able to recall the furloughees? Interesting... well, at least those guys and gals will have a job,,, so well done.

CAN'T just pick and choose which parts of the LOA to apply. Give it time the unions will do what is right with the Merger. The LOA is not applicable.

You wouldn't have had to do that with that LOA, the companies, if still operated separately, would still trigger the LOA.

However, with the GUARANTEE to get the furloughees a job, sounds like the direction the MEC's are taking is a better route for more people.

 

[higney85]

For clarification this employment opportunity is an MOU, not a LOA.

 

[Lear70]

It's funny watching MEC's change the verbiage for what is, basically, the same thing.

An MOU *IS* an LOA for all intents and purposes - from the way they're negotiated to what they accomplish, just another name for an agreement between the company and the union. AirTran's MEC has done it a couple times to do end-runs around MemRat. Not a problem as long as it's benign or benefits the pilot group, but becomes a problem if it doesn't...

 

[Top Gum]

That's not *ENTIRELY* accurate. What management *MIGHT* do right now, or in the new future, may be totally changed by Pinnacle's contract talks, once they re-commence (likely next year). So what changes / integration might happen in the next 90-120 days might only last 6-8 months, depending on the pace of negotiations.

I agree, but the company is currently controlling the talks. They seem to have had the upper hand all along, especially right now. They know what the future holds while we can only guess. They have known about this purchase for a long time now and they are better prepared to achieve.

Ultimately, I think the man will make the decision. Not the pilot group.

 

[machaf]

PCL ALPA already tried to get Colgan on the PCL list, it went to arbitration. Management won. Nothing different is going to happen with Mesaba. I don't think XJ ALPA with the same ALPA lawyers will change anything. Precedent is already set...

Colgan and Mesaba will merge, jets will be transferred to Pinnacle, INC. I feel really bad for the Mesaba guys.

Prepare to bend over.

One list would be a huge win for the pilots, but it just ain't gonna happen.

I hope I eat my words.

 

[mesaba13]

I get the feeling you don't really feel bad for us. Did 9E have scope in your contract? I did'nt think so!

 

[callowayhd]

1 seniority list with a fair integration process for all parties involved.

I am sick of hearing XJ is better or 9E is better. No one is better. All three airlines are owned by one corporation, If you settle for 2 seniority lists, you will be playing into managements hands and the whipsaw continues.

Do you think 4 years from now they might try another switcheroo and take the jets from one and transfer to the other?

 

[Lear70]

Who said one airline was better than the other?? Chill, dude. Everyone there is in this together. :beer:

 

[SEVEN]

I hope I eat my words.

We all hope you eat your words. FYI....I wouldn't rely too much on what happened with Colgan/PNCL in the past......this is a new ballgame my friend.