90 Seat Turbo Prop/UAL/CAL scope buster

[luckytohaveajob]

The source of the quote below in red was from the June 9, 2010 Avweb. It specifically mentions a new India RJ program and further mentions some references to ATR and also Bombair building new stretch version of their large turbo props.


90 seat ATR's and Q400 could replace A320/B737 without any scope issues!



The regional airliner market got more interesting last week as India's government-sponsored National Aerospace Industries announced it was planning a 110- to 120-seat jet. The announcement creates a crowd in a market that doesn't seem to have many buyers at the moment. For instance, Bombardier's CSeries has but 80 orders and the Chinese, Russian and Japanese entrants are counting heavily on domestic sales to justify their development plans. Some analysts say the Indian project is as much an exercise in national pride as it is an aircraft development program and the new jet, if it's ever built, will likely find buyers only on the subcontinent. Meanwhile, the turboprop airliner market also heated up and France's ATR announced plans for a clean-sheet 90-seat turboprop twin.

That could speed up Bombardier's long-speculated stretch of the Q400 from 70 to about 90 seats. It's been pointed out that the Q400X would be a cut-and-paste version of the already-proven Q400 while ATR's is a full-scale development program. The ATR effort wouldn't deliver an aircraft until 2016. Bombardier hasn't decided on the Q400X but if it pulled the trigger soon it could undoubtedly beat that timeline.

 

[Instigator]

The source of the quote below in red was from the June 9, 2010 Avweb. It specifically mentions a new India RJ program and further mentions some references to ATR and also Bombair building new stretch version of their large turbo props.


90 seat ATR's and Q400 could replace A320/B737 without any scope issues!



The regional airliner market got more interesting last week as India's government-sponsored National Aerospace Industries announced it was planning a 110- to 120-seat jet. The announcement creates a crowd in a market that doesn't seem to have many buyers at the moment. For instance, Bombardier's CSeries has but 80 orders and the Chinese, Russian and Japanese entrants are counting heavily on domestic sales to justify their development plans. Some analysts say the Indian project is as much an exercise in national pride as it is an aircraft development program and the new jet, if it's ever built, will likely find buyers only on the subcontinent. Meanwhile, the turboprop airliner market also heated up and France's ATR announced plans for a clean-sheet 90-seat turboprop twin.

That could speed up Bombardier's long-speculated stretch of the Q400 from 70 to about 90 seats. It's been pointed out that the Q400X would be a cut-and-paste version of the already-proven Q400 while ATR's is a full-scale development program. The ATR effort wouldn't deliver an aircraft until 2016. Bombardier hasn't decided on the Q400X but if it pulled the trigger soon it could undoubtedly beat that timeline.

Bust what? CAL's scope limits TurboProp seats to 79.

 

[JimmyKool]

this has been in the news for about a year now. not sure if it'll ever happen.

 

[deadstick]

this has been in the news for about a year now. not sure if it'll ever happen.

It was in AIN in late 2007 when the ATR-72-600 was announced, and oil was $140bbl. At the time they were looking at longer and shorter versions of the Q400 and ATR.

 

[Twisted Mind]

If it has props on it major airline pilots couldn't care less about them.

 

[sleeves]

If it has props on it major airline pilots couldn't care less about them.

Not true. I would fly that thing. If it pays the same as what I am making now.

 

[BoilerUP]

Not true. I would fly that thing. If it pays the same as what I am making now.

But what if it doesn't?

 

[IAHERJ]

But what if it doesn't?

I think we need to work to get these aircraft on our certificates at the "Majors". CAL/UAL needs to work extra hard this year in regards to scope as we are going to set the standard for the next round of negotiations soon to follow. I think the biggest thing we can do this year is arrange to start a transition of all 70 plus seat jet flying to mainline going forward. That will give the new United the green light to work the 3 manufacturers on price to become the 1st mainline carrier in the U.S. to place a large order for aircraft seating 75-115. I'm talking about the C-series, Mitsubishi, and possibly the new Fokker.

As far as your comment on rates go, my opinion is that we need to get the damn planes on our property first before worrying about the pay. I think a CA on an 85 seat jet should make as much as a widebody FO. Give the guys a choice. Some people would rather fly shorter hops than long haul. It should pay the same.

IAHERJ

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

How is a 90 seat plane going to replace a 130-220 seat aircraft???

cliff
LFW

 

[bizicmo]

Hi!

How is a 90 seat plane going to replace a 130-220 seat aircraft???

cliff
LFW

like they did with the 50 seaters. the city pair would have either one 220 seat flight or two to three 90 seat flights.

 

[IAHERJ]

No, you are wrong. I think 90 seat props will probably come one day. I don't think they are going to replace 737/A320/757/767 flying. They are going to be replacing 50 seat jet flying and even some 70 seat jet flying. Capacity constraints at the bug hub airports are the driving reason why larger capacity, shorter range aircraft are going to thrive in the years to come. The 50 seat RJ is going to see less and less of a future role in the business models of the legacies.

These 200 seat aircraft, whether they are operating JFK-LAX or AUS-IAH are there for a reason. They have lots of 1st class seats and are somewhat expected by the business customer we cater to. They are going nowhere.

 

[Twisted Mind]

Alpa has never cared and in my opinion will never will care about props. Main line Alpa guys say stuff like “props are for boats”, “not at my airline”, and “those things are for kids”. Main line dosen’t even include them in the scope language. They are one step below mini jets.

 

[imacdog]

Not true. I would fly that thing. If it pays the same as what I am making now.

.....but since they won't, I take it you'll vote to send these airframes out to the lowest bidder, and the cycle will continue.

 

[IAHERJ]

Well, CALALPA and UALALPA are changing their tone. ALPA National has been a dismal failure in the world of scope. It is going to take local MECs to carry the load in the future. The time is now. A pilot flying a 70 seat jet or a 90 seat prop should not be paid 50% less with nothing but a 401K match etc. just because the management types at the big legacy carriers have been successful in labeling the aircraft "regional" and painting "express" or "connection" on the side. The mechanic working on an aircraft manufactured by Embraer or Bombardier should not make less and work longer hours because the aircraft he is slaving away on in the snow at 0200lcl has been labeled "regional". The same goes for the baggage loaders/customer service agents at the smaller airports and, of course, the flight attendants(only 2 for a 90 seat plane doing 40 minute legs on average in the case of a 90 seat prop). Pilots will take the lead in this fight but I hope other employees see the writing on the wall and support this scope effort.

 

[atpcliff]

Twisted Mind: See above: CAL already has prop scope. I'm sure others do too.

cliff
LFW
PS-I would be ECSTATIC to fly props for a company with good T&Cs (Terms and Conditions).

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The greatest generation of airline pilots all flew props. DC6/7, Constellations, DC3's, Martin 404's, Convair 440's, Electra's, etc.

The future of fuel efficiency is going to be built in the form of an un-ducted propeller style. Mainline pilots better get accustom to flying props again otherwise they will be standing on a ramp somewhere watching the planes fly by without them in one.

And until just recently mainline pilots did fly 70 seat jets. Who flew the DC 9's? Who flew the 737-100? Who flew the Carvelles?

Management truly has won if you mainline pilots are to good to fly real airplanes.

 

[sleeves]

.....but since they won't, I take it you'll vote to send these airframes out to the lowest bidder, and the cycle will continue.

And you would be wrong. My scope says 78 seat turbo props and 50 seat jets. I think that is too high. You want to fly these bigger planes, fine the line starts behind me.

 

[imacdog]

Ah. So you were lying in your original statement? You sounded pretty adament about wanting the same pay you're making now (on the 737?).

 

[Twisted Mind]

Yep Alpa gets all huffed up and puts on a good show about 50 seat or 76 seat jets. Alpa then tosses a 80 seat limit on props. No such airplane exists so alpa really dug in deep on this issue. They really held the line this time. I bet the old geezers would give T-prop scope away for .50 hr raise. Then they would say they didn't even know they had it.

 

[Schwanker]

.....and possibly the new Fokker.

IAHERJ

Can you say that on here???