90 Seat RJs - Redefining the Profession

[USAirways1149]

Yesterday US Airways delivered the first draft of their "plan-C" to the labor groups. The plan included 70/90 seat RJs which would "feed" the mainlin.

I'm curious what your opinion is regarding the portion of the plan dealing with 70/90 seat RJs and what their impact is on the profession that we all signed up for.

Its a contentious issue -- I'm aware of that. But I'm curious. The easy answer, the one you'll hear most mainline types give, is:
"The F-100 was 85 seats and it was paid for -- so why go out and buy new RJs?"

But we all know it is more complicated than that. The company wants to decrease the overall costs of flying airplanes from 50-100 seats.

So the question that we, as airline pilots, must ask ourselves is: What does this do to our profession?

Is it another "B-Scale"? Will it restrict the ability of regional airline pilots to advance in their own careers?

If 70-90 seat RJs are flown by Express carriers there is no need for aircraft such as the DC9, 717, 737-300, Airbus 318/319, Fokker F-100 etc. to be flown by the mainline.

How many FEWER mainline jobs does that create for the next generation of mainline airline pilots?

The problem, in my opinion, is that if it occurs it has blurred the line between a regional airline and a major airline. Unfortunately, that will leave the burden with the regional airline pilots and their unions to "repair" the damage that has been done to the profession.

Yes, I believe it is ALPA's fault. When the first Canadair RJ showed up at Comair, ALPA should have started campaigning for and demanding mainline compensation/benefits at the regional level. They should have been filing alter-ego grievances and demanding that the regionals be merged with their mainline counterparts.

They failed and what we're left with is an industry where its hard to tell where the major ends, and the regional begins. Airlines like Comair are major airlines in their own rights with route structures which rival some of the "traditional" majors. These are no longer feeder-companies which fly 19 people at a time from Jamestown to Pittsburgh...but rather integral parts of the airline network which have replaced the Bac-111, the DC9, the F100 etc...and, right under our noses, have done so with pilots who are unfairly saddled with lower compensation and with inferior work rules.

ALPA dropped the ball, and now -- though it is unfair -- it seems to me that it is up to the individual regionals to restore the integrity of the profession that we all signed up for.

Just my opinion. Flame away but be gentle.

Fraternally,
Mike

 

[FR8mastr]

I agree 100% the only fix for this is to merge the majors and the wo'ed regionals!! and the next new hire at MEGA MAJOR AIRLINES would start in the commuter and when seniority allowed, move up to the new 797 supersonic wide body orbital super shuttle. This is the only way to protect and grow Mainline pilots while at the same time raising the standard at the regional level. Now if we can only convence the Mainline mec's to quit cutting off their noses to spite their faces maybe we could get someplace.

 

[pilotyip]

Fair Salary?

What is a fair salary for a 70 seat RJ Capt?
50K?
100K?
150K?
200K?
How about a 90 seat RJ Capt
50K?
100K?
150K?
200K?
How about a 110 seat RJ Capt
50K?
100K?
150K?
200K?
Should you pay a 70 RJ Capt more than a ALPA member flying the MD-80. like Spirit? More than a B-717 Capt flying for an ALPA carrier like MidWest Exp.
What is the answer?
When the Cost per seat mile of the union RJ is 20% above what a low cost carrier can operate at, will a low cost carrier with used RJ's start up in the hub bypass mode?
These new RJ are now coast to coast range
The market place will determine the equilibraum of pay verus ability to generate revenue.
B scale in the RJ's with senority to get into the bigger equip at higher wages appears to be the answer. If the wages are too high, low cost carrriers will remove that segment from the larger airlines. Why are all of the RJ operations being spun off?, because it makes economic sense. It removes all scope causes, because there are no ties that bind, and it is an open market place where contracts can be let to anyone to provide service at a contracted cost,. The low cost guy gets the business.

 

[taz]

Re: USAirwars1149

Hi Mike
i must say i agree with you 100%.....I
It seems that ALPA has a history of, and indeed this industry that we all signed up for is littered with the human remains and carnage of lives and careers torn apart(PanAm Eastern Continental to name a few) and recked by the incoherent and in some cases reckless disregard with which some in ALPA have sort to proport their agenda in their myopic view without sitting back and analysing the Big picture. Now i realising that Corporate management on the other hand has alot of blame to share too, But it seem's kind of odd the the manner in which ALPA National, Mr. Woerth & Co. and his predecessors chose to conduct business over the years, has always been that United Delta Northwest USAir's are the only ones that matter and the rest of you guy's fight for the scraps.
Now that the Land scape and the financial reality of this new millenium have finally manifested its self. All of a sudden the regionals and their new found tool the RJ, have a new found place in their hearts. The fact is ALPA National Dropped the Ball!!they didn't take it seriously instead they tried to build a bigger fence between "the Majors & The Regionals"
For years & years the guy's & gals in the cummutors/regionals have been left to themselves without any 'Real" support from ALPA. But now have become a precious crown jewel to be sort after because of their potential and supply a resource for jobs for their own, when in times past there have been "Neumerous" attempts by these commuters some of them 'Wholly owned" to negotiate "Flow Through" agreements but because these guys & gals worked for commuters they weren't considered "Good enough"!!.
Now the ALPA USAirways Mec is trying to get its furloughed pilots jobs using the "Potomac Air" certificate but in doing so they are themselves creating a bigger devide than previously exsited,
and all this being done without any regard for the previous Potomac Air Employees, especially the pilots who were represented buy the Teamsters. How can ALPA now want to represent a pilot group which they previously turned down!! and who voted in another representative .
This situation it seems is just another of ALPA US AIRWAYS Mec & ALPA National's folked tongue approach.
Is ALPA saying that there will be no return to the main line jobs for these furloughed pliots....? IS USAirways going to remain/become a large regional? what happens to all these RJ's when the economy picks up? who will fly them?
These are all the questions that need to be answered.

Fly safe All.
Taz

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Embraer is working on RJs that look like Airbuses. The first versions will be 90, 100, and 109+ seats. I believe that Boeing is teaming with Areoflot to make RJs in Russia.

Cliff

 

[Humty72]

Re: Re: USAirwars1149

For years & years the guy's & gals in the cummutors/regionals have been left to themselves without any 'Real" support from ALPA.

I disagree. I was at TSA when we were about 1 hour from strike back in the summer of 2000. During the time of our negotiations, picketing and so fourth I feel that there was a lot of "support from ALPA". Not just financially either.

 

[Vinman]

USAirways1149,

You make some very interesting points. And I think the point of you post was to invoke the thought process in all of us, so here goes another thought.

What is the definition of a Regional and a Major? Are we talking about the perceived definition (Jets vs. Props) or the FAA definition having to do with amount of money earned? I know most people think of the regionals as the "Prop" guys, but did not United and American once fly only props? In my opinion, the industry has to evolve and change to meet the demands of "Joe Customer." Today that demand is jet service from every airport. But this develops into the problem that the flying public for the most part is ignorant of what we do and how we do it. They do not understand that if a community only boards 15-20 people per day or has only a 5000' runway, it cannot support an RJ. This is also the problem that boarding 100-150 people per day cannot support an A320 with the rate of pay associated with mainline pilots. I don't know for sure, but I believe that first year mainline FO pay would probably pay for the entire crew on an RJ. Add to that the fact that an RJ is cheaper to operate than a larger jet, and it has become no wonder why the RJ has become very popular.

All this said, I very much agree with you on the point of where does the line get drawn between the feeder and the mainline. Will it someday become an industry where the "Expresses" fly the US routes and "Mainlines" fly over the oceans. At the rate things are going, how can you really call a company a feeder airline when they fly aircraft that are larger than mainline. I think this will end up being the industry changing pattern of the late 20th and early 21st century much like the advent of jet aircraft did in the 70's.

Once again these are only my thoughts, and I am looking forward to reading other thoughts on the subject.

 

[jetdriven]

a "major airline" is one that has 1 billion dollars annual revenue.

 

[Marko Ramius]

I don't know for sure, but I believe that first year mainline FO pay would probably pay for the entire crew on an RJ. [/B]

Nope. Even at the two best paid majors DAL and UAL, first year FO pay wouldn't be more than an entire RJ crew. In fact prior to Contract 2000, first year pay at United was less than 2nd year RJ FO pay at ACA. Airlines like Northwest, still pay about 24,000 first year. I've heard you can make more than that in the Dash at Piedmont.

 

[Splert]

Then comes the second year at NWA and the pay goes up to around $85,000 plus. Then a NWA pilot rolls out of bed in the third year and is his/her pay goes to around $100,000 and that is for flying side-ways on a '47-200.

A DC-9 Capt. at 12 years tops out at $186,000 plus retirement. At the regional airlines a RJ Capt. tops out in year 18 at around $100,000 and zero for retirement.

I will be in line at NWA.

Late...

 

[publisher]

Review

Why don't you take the revenue for all the regionals, add SWA, Alaska, and AirTran, ATA, Frontier and the rest, and compare those totals, roi, roa, etc. on to what we now call the majors.

Then think about what any of them does in combination with the others. Think no more wholly owneds at all.

 

[Ted Striker]

Splert, I'm right behind you brotha!

 

[TurboS7]

I thinks that a RJ airline should be required by law to connect the dots from every hub and spoke mainline system. That means no Miami, Atlanta, Chicago but Chicago-Miami via an RJ. The same goes for the rest of the system. Give the American people what they deserve and not the garbage that they have now.

 

[pilotdad]

splert

I believe after 15 years with Comair, you can receive a retirement package.

 

[publisher]

Embraer

As an aside, at the RAA I had the opportunity to see the new Embraer 170 which is the base for their second group of larger regional jets. It is a fantastic looking aircraft and terrific looking cockpit. Real big aircraft feel rather than the small tube effect.

There is no question at all that the so called regional is going through a metamorphisis. It started with Comair strike and has not stopped since.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Splurt:
Air Wisconsin is the best paying regional. In about 3.5 years, at the end of their current contract, a first year FO will make about $40K, substantially more than a NWA 1st year guy. I think with their work rules, senior captains there will be making $120-150K. They have a very nice retirement package.

Most of the regionals have 401Ks, and some have better retirements, though I think AWAC is the best of the bunch.

Have fun flying your big iron. I would love to fly a 737, which would be smaller than what I used to fly, but bigger than the C-182 I'm flying now!

Cliff
GB,WI

 

[Wowjack]

To the Major!?

I'm wondering if the CFI's on this board now will end up having to stay at the Regional level as a career with the rate that RJ's are growing. No doubt an RJ can replace a 737 over the same route, the bean counters love this and would rather pay an RJ crew than a mainline crew. Why not, take LAX to PHX, Skywest is flying an RJ instead of UAL flying a 737. We are our own worst emeny, all of us have to deal with this evolution that will change the industry in the long run.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Embraer

There is no question at all that the so called regional is going through a metamorphisis. It started with Comair strike and has not stopped since.

What started with the Comair Strike? What exactly are you saying?

 

[57FLY'N]

The customer will define the market. Not the pilot. Keep jamming the rj down their throat and you will drive them away. They will gladly fly SWA or JB for the bigger A/C. People don't want to fly on "little" airplanes. They will pay more to ride a larger A/C. In the long run relying on an RJ that competes on a route with one offered by a mainliner, the customer will pick the bigger A/C every time. The only pax that like these jets are the ones in markets only sevred by them where they don't have a choice.

 

[Old Crow]

Call me crazy... but if a city has service options of two 757's a day or 6 RJ's a day. I think the multiple time option would be the better choice. The struggle of the RJ is to use it in the efficient time periods in the right sized markets.
Many cities are offered much more service options per day because of the RJ.

Ask a passenger what they want out of an airline?
1. Safety
2. On time
3 Customer service

That's the fact Jack.

I personally like the fact that I can be boarded in 10 minutes, drop my bag by the step and get it when I get off. Convience.

Speed, comfort, service are all the same. I guess I don't get to watch those funny bloopers though.

Good luck to us all.

 

[surplus1]

The customer will define the market. Not the pilot. Keep jamming the rj down their throat and you will drive them away. They will gladly fly SWA or JB for the bigger A/C. People don't want to fly on "little" airplanes. They will pay more to ride a larger A/C. In the long run relying on an RJ that competes on a route with one offered by a mainliner, the customer will pick the bigger A/C every time. The only pax that like these jets are the ones in markets only sevred by them where they don't have a choice.

That's all very interesting and it probably supports your desires. However, it is also a contradiction of fact.

Passengers on regional jets often pay more than the do on narrow body jets.

The back end of a regional jet (the only end) is no different in comfort from the back end of a 737 or DC-9. It's actually better if you happen to be stuck in the middle row.

The on-board service is the same. Same peanuts, same booze, same free coke, etc.

Getting on and off the rj is much more convenient. So is baggage handling (unless you're carrying the kitchen sink).

Frequency of service is generally better. You go when you want to go, not when the airline wants to go.

The customer will NOT pick the bigger a/c every time. I know of many routes where RJs compete directly with SWA and do so successfully, inspite of higher ticket prices. When you charge $59 to go from A to B, you have to put a LOT of people on a 737 just to break even. At $20 more, a 50-seat RJ can operate at a profit with a 40% load factor.

The 73/DC-9 may take you there 2 or 3 times a day. The RJ will give you 6-7 options of schedule.

So there's no first class. There's no first class on SWA either. Most people don't buy 1st class tickets. Those seats are mostly filled by "upgrades" using free mileage and non-revs paying nothing.

Unless you have heavy loads to fill 75% of more of the mainline aircaft consistently, the airline loses money.

If what you say were true, the airlines would not be buying and operating ever increasing numbers of RJs. Unlike pilots, airline managers are interested in making PROFITS, not in paying higher salaries to airplane drivers operating empty aircraft

Whereever the big aircraft can be operated at a higher profit it will be used. When the profit isn't there, you see the RJ instead. This whole thing is not about what keeps pilots happy, it's about what makes more money.

 

[TurboS7]

Enough is enough, I guess I have to jump in. I fly commercially a lot, we call it the curse of the charter business. I have flown as a passenger the RJ's too much, and mainline birds too much also. In order to pass the time I usually try to strike up a conversation with a real customer(non-aviation type) and try to find out what they like and what they do not. Here is what I have found out...
1)safety and all that stuff is a given, the RJ is a great airplane and the crews are safe and well trained so lets just put all the pilot stuff aside and look at the customer.
2)the customer wants to go non-stop-no hubs
3)they love the RJ and once they get settled they would be happy to spend 3.0 hours in it vs. 20 minutes.
4)they would love to have a meal- the ONLY advantage of a mainline airplane-since that went away on 911 who cares now.
5)they love gate checking their carry-on's and picking them up at the gate-MAJOR CUSTOMER SATIFACTION DEAL PEOPLE LOVE THIS
6)ON TIME IS A MUST-people treasure their time they demand that the aircraft move on time.
7)People don't mind odd hours for travel if it results in few or no delays. Non-stop on the back side of the clock the aircraft would be full all the time.
8)People think the airlines are pretty dumb to use a 2000 mile range jet to go 300 miles-NO WONDER THEY ARE LOOSING MONEY -they comment.
9)Jet is a jet and they all fly the same, you just sit a little higher off the ground for some if you are flying a RJ enjoy the job.

 

[chawbein]

As one of the customers of the airlines and someone who is 6'4" tall, I would like to give my thoughts on RJ's. Big plane, little plane, they are all equally uncomfortable (for me). What are the most important aspects in flying commercially:

1. Schedule
2. On Time
3. Customer Service (I don't know why, but I think that SWA has the best customer service. I will NEVER fly NWA again, because their customer service is so poor.)

Regardless, I will look for the lowest price and non-stop flights. After those two criteria are met, then I look at the criteria mentioned above.

 

[57FLY'N]

My post was not intended to rally support for large A/C it was simply to state what influence the pax have on this toppic.

Timelyness, cust service, and safety are at the top of the list. If the RJ can fly the direct route from the small towns that the pax want then it clearly is the best choice. But unfortunately People from these areas do not want to go to the same place. The larger A/C comes into play when the leg is 1+ hours. I to have talked in great leangth with the flying public, both in uniform and out, and have found:

1. People want to go stait home.

2. Are dissapointed when they find out they are on any type of commuter. Unless it is there last leg home.

3. They do not want to be on an RJ for an extended period of time.

5. Have come to expect their flights to be cancelled or consolidated towards the end of the day when riding with regionals.

4. And of course, most stated the same facts as in other posts.

You can talk money all you want, but without considering the customer, you are ignoring the #1 reason for being there in the first place. First we took away their leg room now we are giving them that same leg room in an even smaller aircraft. What a deal. If we keep making it more unpleasant for them mayby they won't show up at all.

If you had the choice on a 3 hour drive and one friend is driving his suburban and the other is driving his brand new Yugo, the only difference is the suburban needs stop briefly and then continue. Which one would you pick? What if the suburban was non stop?

 

[surplus1]

My post was not intended to rally support for large A/C it was simply to state what influence the pax have on this toppic.

Speaking for myself, I did not make that assumption. What I did do was challenge some of your ideas. We agree completely that the passenger is #1 and will make the decision.

Timelyness, cust service, and safety are at the top of the list. If the RJ can fly the direct route from the small towns that the pax want then it clearly is the best choice. But unfortunately People from these areas do not want to go to the same place. The larger A/C comes into play when the leg is 1+ hours.

I happen to work for a regional and fly an RJ. I also ride in the back of airplanes, as a passenger, almost as much as I ride in the front office and seldom in uniform. Probably more on "big" airplanes than small ones. I don't know what "regionals" you ride on, but the one I work for and the ones I ride on don't fit your descriptions.

Timeliness: My airline has a much better on time record that its mainline partner. That record is better than most major airlines, consistently.

Customer Service: Our CSAs are as proficient as any I've encountered, friendlier than most to the paying passenger. baggage handling is better and more efficient and the percentage of bags we "lose" lower. In-flight cabin service is MUCH friendlier and intimate (without being "familiar"). We just don't have disgruntled flight attendants, many of whom on the majors are visibly unpleasant. What we offer for free, in the back, is no different than what I am offered on most of the majors, over the same stage length. The seat-pitch, in the back, is either the same or so close I can't tell the difference. I'm never sandwiched into a middle seat. The overhead bins are smaller, but it's easy to get my carry on loaded (in the back) and it's available now, when I deplane. I don't have to fight for bin space on board. There is plenty of room for those things I do carry-on. I don't get tv and video games, outdated movies, or sound tracks I don't like. Those things are available (and of my choice) via my laptop. I don't miss the onboard telephones. With high frequency, I have more choice of schedule in most cases.

My regionals of choice, fly to small towns and also fly to the large hubs (all that exist in my area of operation). I don't go to the West Coast very often so I don't know what happens out there.

Sometimes I have to connect and change planes on my regional. In most cases, I can change to a mainline aircraft or to another RJ at all the big hubs. In the smaller cities, the mainline aircraft are so scarse as to be impractical.

Safety: No different (as a matter of fact better records) on the regionals I use. I do admit however, there are some regionals on which I would not let my family ride. All regionals aren't the same, just like all large aircraft operators aren't the same.

Most sectors that I ride on (and operate) are between 1 - 2 hour duration, with an occasional 2.5. The block time is no different on the big aircraft and the total travel time is always shorter on the regional jet.

What I'm say is, my experiences don't seem to match yours.

There are some airlines with big airplanes on which I would never ride, even though it's free, unless I had to. I don't like the cattle car concept or the poor service. BTW, that doesn't include SWA, which although crowded, has always treated me "nice". Same with the regionals.

I to have talked in great leangth with the flying public, both in uniform and out, and have found:

1. People want to go stait home.

My regional lets you do that in most cases. No need to switch at hubs. Some flights (many actually) that do make a stop, let you continue with no change of aircraft and it doesn't takes us 2 hours to turn. If I do have a plane change, I can do it in the same terminal with minimum of hassle and continue on another RJ operated by the same airline. When I have to change to a big airplane, I have to ride a bus (like you do in IAD) or the train/shuttle same as the major airline.

2. Are dissapointed when they find out they are on any type of commuter. Unless it is there last leg home.

Most passengers don't have a clue, unless of course you choose to tell them. The one's that say "it's so small" can almost always be identified as first-time or very infrequent flyers. What I call the "bus" set. By the time the flight is over they have a change of heart more often than not, thanks to the great FAs'

3. They do not want to be on an RJ for an extended period of time.

Again, if you don't empnasize it a majority don't know. Those who do know, usually like the airplane and chose it on purpose for the good schedule, good service and on-time performance you mentioned.

4. Have come to expect their flights to be cancelled or consolidated towards the end of the day when riding with regionals.

Huh? I don't know which regionals you ride on, but my airline NEVER cancels or consolidates flights due to passenger load, regardless of the "time of day". We operate our schedule and the cancellation causes are no different from those at a major airline.

Again, I'm lost as to which regionals you ride on, 'cause what you describe is foreign to me. Yes, I've had "bad service" on a regional, but frankly it has been less frequent than on a major. Some personell at the majors (CSA's and FAs) seem to think they're doing you a "favor".

I know my treatment as a non-rev isn't the same as full fare (in some cases), but I'm not wearing blinders and I know who the paying customers are. We stand in the same lines, sit next to each other and since I travel in civvies, they don't know I'm a non-rev and I don't tell.

I agree with you 100% that the customer is and should be King. That is how we treat our customers and it's on a par if not better than most majors I've ridden on. We go out of our way to make it "pleasant" and they keep coming back by the millions. They do have other options, so there must be a reason.

Since we don't have but a couple 3-hours plus segments, your analogy with the SUV doesn't seem to apply.

I wonder why our experiences appear to be so different?

 

[FlyingSig]

Timeliness: My airline has a much better on time record that its mainline partner. That record is better than most major airlines, consistently.

Does Comair have ACARS or do you call out your own times? That really makes a big differance. Ask SWA

Customer Service: Our CSAs are as proficient as any I've encountered, friendlier than most to the paying passenger. baggage handling is better and more efficient and the percentage of bags we "lose" lower. In-flight cabin service is MUCH friendlier and intimate (without being "familiar"). We just don't have disgruntled flight attendants, many of whom on the majors are visibly unpleasant.

Agreed. Comair in MCO does a great job. Comair handles Delta in MHT and they are extremly friendly and knowlegeable. I enjoy flying in there. All the other outstations I've flown to on Comair, were staffed by Delta mainline ACS agents and not Comair agents though. The "younger" in-flight staff goes a long way to being able to keep smiling vs. the 95 year old FA's that have been working since they dated the Wright brothers.

But this really depends on the airline. Gilligan's island in DFW and Concorse C in ATL is not a plesant expericance for non-revs and the way I've seen paying passengers treated by CSA's is pretty embarrasing. Not knocking the flight crews there...just the gate agents.

4. Have come to expect their flights to be cancelled or consolidated towards the end of the day when riding with regionals

Never found this to be a problem on CMR out of CVG. Not since the Metro's went away in MCO either... however I have found reliability to be an issue in DFW on all three DCI carriers that fly out of there. Again, not the flight crews fault and just my observations (I usually flew on CAL or AA for this reason and after 9/11 I found myself driving between Houston-Dallas more than half of my trips)

 

[surplus1]

Does Comair have ACARS or do you call out your own times? That really makes a big differance. Ask SWA.

No, we're not using ACARS. Our pay system does not lend it self to padding. There is no need. Most of us would prefer to maintain our reputation than the few cents you migh occasionally pick up. It's a pride thing, seldom understood in today's world. Part of our "culture", which is very much our own.

Agreed. Comair in MCO does a great job. Comair handles Delta in MHT and they are extremly friendly and knowlegeable. I enjoy flying in there. All the other outstations I've flown to on Comair, were staffed by Delta mainline ACS agents and not Comair agents though. The "younger" in-flight staff goes a long way to being able to keep smiling vs. the 95 year old FA's that have been working since they dated the Wright brothers.

I'll be the first to admit that things do change where we are not handled by our own people. Obviously, I was making reference to our own staff, not the subcontractors.

But this really depends on the airline. Gilligan's island in DFW and Concorse C in ATL is not a plesant expericance for non-revs and the way I've seen paying passengers treated by CSA's is pretty embarrasing. Not knocking the flight crews there...just the gate agents.

I don't know too much about the "island" (which we don't operate) and I'll have to agree that I've often shared the pain of Concourse C in ATL (which we also do not operate). Now that we're doing some ATL runs, it's a cause of constant concern (at C & D) in maintaining our accustomed level of service/reliability. I didn't want to point fingers at other carriers.

Never found this to be a problem on CMR out of CVG. Not since the Metro's went away in MCO either... however I have found reliability to be an issue in DFW on all three DCI carriers that fly out of there. Again, not the flight crews fault and just my observations (I usually flew on CAL or AA for this reason and after 9/11 I found myself driving between Houston-Dallas more than half of my trips)

The Metro has difficulty qualifying as an airplane. They are long gone, but they still didn't cancel for loads. They canceled for mechanicals. If you look at the trip numbers between IAH and DFW you'll find we don't fly that route. We have 1 daily RT CVG-DFW; 3- DFW-CRP and 1 DFW-SAT. If you've had trouble on those let me know. I know there's this DCI thing, but the truth is we still haven't been "assimilated" (thank goodness). Please don't lump us into that barrel. We've been bought, but we still have our identity which I know, regretably, may eventually die. We can't be responsible for other "brands" or their people. Like I said in the other post, "all regionals are not the same".

PS. Hoping you'll soon be back.

 

[publisher]

since Comair strike

Comair was a wake up to the majors that they could be held hostage by their feeders. Since that moment, they have been distancing themselves. It has been apparent to me at every turn and confirmed with the Regional Airline Association meeting in Nashville.

It is certainly in the realm of possibility that there will be no wholly owned regional by the end of the next three years. Scope is certainly no answer. As point to point flying in smaller jets by passes hubs, every regional will need to be competitive with their counterparts and the totally independents.

From where I sit, most of the argument, not all, that is on this subject has already been decided. It was reflected in the tough line that Delta took with Comair, with the stance that American took with the APA, with the spin off of Pinnacle and COEX. With the success of Southwest, Alaska, JetBlue, Air Tran.

 

[surplus1]

Re: since Comair strike

Comair was a wake up to the majors that they could be held hostage by their feeders. Since that moment, they have been distancing themselves. It has been apparent to me at every turn and confirmed with the Regional Airline Association meeting in Nashville.

I've been trying to guesstimate where you're going with RAA spin and haven't quite been able to pin you down. Your posts are clever.

There's a story behind the story of the Comair strike that you or the RAA or both may not have grasped.

First, negotiations were in progress for more than two years before Delta bought Comair. Second, the needs of Comair pilots (at the bargaining table) did not change as a result of the Delta purchase. Third, had it not been for the Delta purchase the outcome of the strike would have been quite different.

If the majors do spin off the regionals like Comair in the future, the RAA may get more than it seems to be counting on, if I'm reading correctly between your lines.

It is certainly in the realm of possibility that there will be no wholly owned regional by the end of the next three years. Scope is certainly no answer. As point to point flying in smaller jets by passes hubs, every regional will need to be competitive with their counterparts and the totally independents.

That sounds like you think the RAA believes that if regionals are spun off, they can more readily be played against each other for even lower wages and benefits. If that's the idea, they may bite off more than they can chew.

From where I sit, most of the argument, not all, that is on this subject has already been decided. It was reflected in the tough line that Delta took with Comair, with the stance that American took with the APA, with the spin off of Pinnacle and COEX. With the success of Southwest, Alaska, JetBlue, Air Tran.

There is no regional in the business that could have sustained the $680 million dollar 90-day "tough stance" that Delta did. Had the strike been against Comair instead of Delta, some think there would be no Comair, others think the strike would have been settled much earlier with the pilots achieving most of their goals.

If all the big regionals are spun off, they will soon find that joining together is the only way they can survive in a free market. They won't be competing with each other for the crumbs. They'll consolidate and control their end of the market. You could wind up with the tail wagging the dogs.

What do you think a merger of Eagle, Coex, Comair, ASA, SkyWest, AirWisconsin, Horizon and Atlantic Coast would look like? Perhaps that's far fetched, but perhaps its not. How do you think the pilots of such an entity would fare at the bargaining table?

Will the RAA be able to keep regional pilots from uniting with each other if they are no longer burdened with the yoke of their mainline masters?

It might turn out to be the best thing that could happen to regional pilots. Somehow I don't think it would take them too long to figure out how not to be the "lowest bidder".

Careful what you ask for. You might get it.

 

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Huh? I don't know which regionals you ride on, but my airline NEVER cancels or consolidates flights due to passenger load, regardless of the "time of day". We operate our schedule and the cancellation causes are no different from those at a major airline.

BULL ----- **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**,

Your service has caused me more grief in the past than 3 screeming two year olds. I have to voice out now that you have crossed the line. I tried to read all your posts on recent issues with an open mind, and do firmly believe that you do have the blinders on. FDJ and Clownpilot have my vote. You accuse them of not seeing the other side but with your statements in the post in which I have quoted, you clearly are Hard headed one sided and all in it for yourself. If you are married than I would guess you have been divorced. If not, then I guess you have never been maried. If you are married and never been divorced then I'll bet your wife is affraid to divorce you. You show no signs of compromise and want it your way. I think BK is still hiring, and I don't mean their flight dept. You can fool yourself into thinking the RJ is for everybody, but until you create your own airline of them you will always be the step child. You are right in one thing you do probably get treated differently as a nonrev, because you certainly don't see the missery of the paying public.