9 or less or 10 and more

Seadogrun

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I know there are some companies flying aircraft with more than 10 passenger seats on a 9 or less certificate. How does this work? Can they fly these planes as long as there is not more than 9 passengers?

The owner of my airplane(10 seats) is being courted by a certificate that is 9 or less, but they say they can get the plane through conformity and fly it 9 or less pax.

Does this work?

Thanks,
 

Andy Neill

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I know there are some 91 provisions that are based on passengers vs seats. For instance, you can fly an aircraft with more than 24 seats and 15 passengers on board and not need a flight attendant. Flying that same aircraft full would require a flight attendant.
 

kingairyahoo

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I know there are some companies flying aircraft with more than 10 passenger seats on a 9 or less certificate. How does this work? Can they fly these planes as long as there is not more than 9 passengers?

The owner of my airplane(10 seats) is being courted by a certificate that is 9 or less, but they say they can get the plane through conformity and fly it 9 or less pax.

Does this work?

Thanks,
yes...i know a few companies that have a kit that essentially renders a seat unavailable. this keeps something like a king air 350 with the jumpseats legal for the 9 or less certificate.
 

ERIC604PILOT

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If the plane (citation, challenger, etc.) does have 10 passenger seats, you will need to place it on a certificate that has a 10 or more certificate. This requires a whole different manual and maintenance system. (GMM, CASP, CAMP, etc) You will have a different set of MX issues, such as a mandatory MX release before each flight. It's no big deal once it's set up, but I'd look for an operator that already has one of these systems in place. You'll want them to check with their POI, but my guess is the operator is giving you a sales pitch. We just got our 10 or more, and it took all of 5 months of hard work to get it.
Good luck
 
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Seadogrun

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Thanks, that's what I thought. But I definately know of a certificate that is 9 or less operating with an airplane with 10 seats installed. It made it through conformity. Maybe they've done something along the lines of what Kingairyahoo is suggesting.

Where can I find the rules on this subject written down?
 

kingairyahoo

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If the plane (citation, challenger, etc.) does have 10 passenger seats, you will need to place it on a certificate that has a 10 or more certificate.
not necessarily true...then King Air 350s would not work on 9 or less certificates...especially with the jumpseats ;)
 

TransMach

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Very simply put, go read 14CFR Part 135. It details it all out and I would do that rather than listen to anyone here ...

TransMach



Thanks, that's what I thought. But I definately know of a certificate that is 9 or less operating with an airplane with 10 seats installed. It made it through conformity. Maybe they've done something along the lines of what Kingairyahoo is suggesting.

Where can I find the rules on this subject written down?
 

kingairyahoo

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Very simply put, go read 14CFR Part 135. It details it all out and I would do that rather than listen to anyone here ...

TransMach
...agreed, im just sayin how ive seen it done ;)

and...if memory serves, its actually in Part 119 :beer:
 

b350capt

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The "stock" King Air 350 works on a 9 or less beacuse it only has 9 passenger seats (assuming no aft jumpseats). If your aircraft is Type Certified for more than 9 seats w/o a dual TC (such as the Sovereign) then it must be placed on a 10 or more certificate for any 135 operations. (meaning you can't just casually take the seats out of a G-IV and say look, 9 seats!)

If you have the jumpseats in a 350 and have a dual AFM supplement, passenger breifing cards, etc and all other interchangable data for the aircraft, then you can conduct 91 operations with 11 seats, and 135 operations with 9 with the HBC placard in place for the aft seats being unusuable. Same goes for the CE-680, it is a 12 seat aircraft, however the forward divan seat is removeable and doubles as a galley extension. There is a complete 2nd AFM supplement, weight and balance, and passenger briefing card arrangement which makes it legal to operate 9 or less 135 and a full 12 on 135.

Part 119 does not specifiy specifics regarding seating capacity, only through reference to 135.411(a) and .419 in the contents of OpSpecs. So, in truth, they both specificy a requirement, but the details are in 135.

But as I'm constantly reminded in life, I'm sure there is more to the story than I know.....
 

727Niteflyer

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I happen to be working with 1 certificate that is putting on an emb 145 (buisness jet version). The requirements for 10 or more are mostly maintenance related. Th regs say for 9 or less the operator can use a manufacturer maintenance program (100 hour, annual, etc..), But for aircraft with 10 or more the regs say the operator has to have an aircraft specific maintenance program.

You can mix 9 seats or less with aircraft 10 seats or more (for example on this certificate, it has a cheyanne and cj1), 9 seats or less use the manufacturers maint program, 10 or more use a specific operators maint program.

The only other differences are some equipment differences between 9 or less and 10 or more. Taws is required is on item that comes to mind, FDR and maybe CVR requirements (Id have to look those up).

Its all in 135 I dont think anything is found in 119 but I could be wrong.

No operational differences.

One other thing. You use to be able to disable a seat (remove a seatbelt) , do a logbook entry and you have a 9 seats or less aircraft. Not anymore. FAA says what ever is in the AFM from the manufacturer on the configuration, thats what it is.

I work with another certificate that has a King Air 350 and a CE680. Both are 9 or less. Jumpseats, or Flight Attendant seats are never considered passenger seats.
 

100-1/2

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Review FAR 135.411 and associated Regs as Applicable

100-1/2
 

ksu_aviator

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You can get a waiver for just about anything. Getting a waiver on a management aircraft so that it may fly 135 yet avoid costly upgrades is doable and common.

The FAA will typically agree to placarding a seat as "May Not Be Occupied During Takeoff and Landing" and removing the seat belts. Generally this is done on a potty/jumpseat or extra couch seat.
 

kingairyahoo

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alright you silly geese...we all know the details are in 135 as this IS the charter (read; 135) section of the board! i was merely recalling a nagging memory of definitions of some sort in 119. which, by the way, are there in 119.3 ;)

on another note, i dont think anyone is suggesting that he put a G4 on a 9 or less cert. but in the case of a B300 it can (and has) caused an issue when the pilot shows up to fly it and the dam jumpseats are in it. a pilot cannot (could not?) casually remove a jumpseat without some sort of official training/logbook entry/etc. this necessitated utilization of the placarded seats, making them unavailable for use :cool:

since were on the subject of a 300/350...i know of another operator who basically will not allow the plane to be flown single pilot on charter, as that co-pilot seat could possibly be used by a passenger, which makes more than 9 seats available...therefore illegal :p

...go figure :smash:
 

gulfstream2345

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10 or more, 9 or less

The FAA will allow an aircraft with more than 10 seats installed to be considered a "9" or less if the extra seats are placarded and/or there are no seat belts installed. This happens frequently on a 3 place divan that can seat 4. However, that is not the policy of all FSDOs. Standardization? Right.

From a former FAA Ops Inspector.
 
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