8 Hour Rule

[Andy Neill]

Oops, must have been thinking the 16 hour duty rule.

There is no such rule. There is an 8 hour minimum rest rule.

 

[Buzo]

There is no such rule. Ther is an 8 hour minimum rest rule.

There is a rule, it is called the Whitlow rule.

 

[Andy Neill]

There is a rule, it is called the Whitlow rule.

I think that you will find that the Whitlow letter was used by the FAA to enforce the existing 121.471 limits on crew rest rather than directly addressing max duty day. If you need at least 8 hours rest in the last 24, that will indeed dictate no more than 16 hours of duty but there is no such limit mentioned there or in the regs.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Dang...I thought this thread was on the 8 hr bottle to throttle rule...

oh well.....13.5 hrs to go!

 

[Sig]

I think that you will find that the Whitlow letter was used by the FAA to enforce the existing 121.471 limits on crew rest rather than directly addressing max duty day. If you need at least 8 hours rest in the last 24, that will indeed dictate no more than 16 hours of duty but there is no such limit mentioned there or in the regs.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

A litmus test for this reg is whether you can remain "on call" indefinitely as a reserve. You can, but you need the 24/7 consecutive rest or release for rest per lookback. Whitlow nailed the ATA to the wall with the lookback requirement, but we've moved into a weird world where "on call" and "duty" can get blurred. My airline's FOM fellates donkeys regarding the FARs on this issue. Somewhat of an aside, but still pertinent.

So overall, we have no such thing as a "max duty day" per the regulations; it is a notion put in check by minimum rest requirements.

 

[vectorvictor]

Oh, that 8-hour rule.... :0

Shows you were my mind is today!

I'm right there with you. It's 5 o'clock somewhere.

 

[rustypigeon]

A litmus test for this reg is whether you can remain "on call" indefinitely as a reserve. You can, but you need the 24/7 consecutive rest or release for rest per lookback.

You can't remain on call indefinitely. Your resevere period is not rest. If you started a reserve period at 0500, there is no way you can operate revenue past 2100.

Rest period means the period free of all restraint or duty for a certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or supplemental operations and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise.

 

[Grey Ghost]

I thought you were talking about alcohol?

 

[Sig]

You can't remain on call indefinitely. Your resevere period is not rest. If you started a reserve period at 0500, there is no way you can operate revenue past 2100.

Reread my post. I am correct.

You can remain on reserve for 40 years straight- as long as you don't fly! In order to operate revenue on the 40th anniversary of going on call, you'd need to be released for 24 hours... and you'd be legal to do so.

 

[rustypigeon]

Reread my post. I am correct.

You can remain on reserve for 40 years straight- as long as you don't fly! In order to operate revenue on the 40th anniversary of going on call, you'd need to be released for 24 hours... and you'd be legal to do so.

I gotcha. When I read your post, you said 24/7 and I thought you were referring to the 24 hours off duty in 7 days. I thought you were saying that all you need is 24 hours free in 7 days, and that you could remain on call 24 hours a day, all week operating revenue. My reading comprehension teacher always said I was a lousy reader.

 

[Sig]

Are you kidding? This crap will make anyone's head spin! My biggest fear at my airline is when newhires on reserve bump 16 hours, because they don't understand when they came off rest vs. duty limitations. CrewSkedjyooling will gladly let them do that- then "self disclose." Sneaky sneaky, huh?

 

[Soverytired]

ALPA has the definitive guidebook for these kind of questions, and every pilot should have one in their flight bag.

ALPA might not be powerless to effect (affect?) much needed change in rest requirements, but they do a good job explaining them.

 

[Soverytired]

You can't remain on call indefinitely. Your resevere period is not rest. If you started a reserve period at 0500, there is no way you can operate revenue past 2100.

Rest period means the period free of all restraint or duty for a certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or supplemental operations and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise.

You CAN remain on reserve indefinitely. However, they'll have to give you a period of rest prior to showing up for work that complies with rest requirements.

So . . . on reserve for 7 days straight? NP . . but you'll have to get 24 hours free from duty before your next report time.

Or . . . on reserve for 18 hours straight? NP . . . but you'll have to get at least 8 hours free from duty before you actually report for your next shift.

 

[Sig]

ALPA has the definitive guidebook for these kind of questions, and every pilot should have one in their flight bag.

FT/DT guide is awesome. JJ in legal is always available for questions, too.

A scenario that cooks my noodle is the following:

Our airline requires a RSV to call in the day prior to a stretch of work- on a day off. That seems to me "holding a present responsibility" to the airline, but not for "work should the need arise." It is a present responsibility to call the airline.

That means we blew a day off, per Section 1 of our contract and are therefore entitled to another day free from work!?

Today is the last day of a Golden Day stretch, tomorrow begins a reserve block of 4 days. Sked called me. I have absolutely zero mandate to answer. They assign me a trip to show 1:25 minutes prior to the earliest I could contractually be forced to show- there is no real way they could ding me if these rules weren't washed out years ago and "prior practice" rewrites how it can be done.

Infuriating.