747 tanker

[007]

Relax. You're getting way too defensive and wrapped around the axle about all this. You assume I have no firefighting experience, well you would be wrong. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on some aspects of the incident.

I think everything avbug said here is dead on. Anyone who has more than one season under their belt knows the super tankers are just a publicity stunt for Calfire.

The DC-10 may have had a lot of experience in the aircraft but none in this environment. Downdrafts are part of the game and to say the Lead did not warn them of this is typical airline pilot rethoric.

 

[avbug]

You assume I have no firefighting experience, well you would be wrong.

Volunteer fire department social organizer, then? You didn't know what a leadplane was...still don't. You called it a "chase plane." You don't know it's role. You don't know the heavy tanker role. Yet you're a firefighter, then?

Do tell. Do tell.

Set your barbeque alight one day and singed off an eyebrow, did you?

 

[stupidpilot]

Man, you guys are defensive. Are you always this thin skinned?

 

[avbug]

Tell us about your fire experience, stupidpilot.

 

[414Flyer]

Relax. You're getting way too defensive and wrapped around the axle about all this. You assume I have no firefighting experience, well you would be wrong. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on some aspects of the incident.

Sorry, but there is no way you can accuse them of being overly defensive. There was VERY NEARLY yet another tragedy on fires, in which would have most certainly been a fatal accident for those on board, which would have most definitely had major repercussions on the rest of those in aerial firefighting.

Avbug and DC4 have more fire experience than me, but I have got a few seasons in on the air and ground. Anyone who has been around the air side long enough, has probably experienced losing close friends. One guy I know who flies on fire, has lost more friends in aerial firefighting, than he has friends left.

Both Avbug and DC4 can tell you what it is like to lose people you know, and there have been too many great people lost doing this. A huge part of doing this safely is it proper training, and learning lessons when something can do better. Its not being defensive to want to the proper training and experience required for safe operations.

I am not sure how the DC-10 training was to get carded, I have heard somethings but cant verify so cant comment there. But I really doubt that DC-10 captain was highly experienced in tanker flying, and if that was his first year on fire, that is just asking for yet another tragedy.

And if his first instinct was instead was just to blame others (lead plane, etc) and mountain turbulence for what happened, that kind of mindset is dangerous.

There is no need to "relax" when it comes to aerial fire operations, it is a deadly serious business. Here is what it boils down to, a list of good people who are not with us anymore, a list that is way too long, and none of us want it to get any longer.

http://www.airtanker.org/memorial.htm

 

[avbug]

I see Gene hasn't been added to the list, yet. Nor Gert from earlier in the year.

 

[stupidpilot]

I agree that there should have been more training and more research done on how the best way there was to effectively utilize a DC-10 tanker. With the incident I think it is clear that it has to be utilized differently than the other tankers. In no way am I trying to place all of the blame on anyone. There was clearly some problems that need to be addressed and worked out. There is just no need to get all fired up about it. Is there room for a civil discussion?

 

[414Flyer]

You need to remember, that one reason the aerial firefighting has had so many deaths, is there was a time where things were too relaxed, and maybe if people had been more outspoken and "fired up", there would be less widows, and children who lost a parent.

If there is anything getting fired up about, I would say a DC-10 hitting trees on a drop, flown by a crew without much fire experience, definitely qualifies.

 

[avbug]

There's room for civil discussion after you pony up and tell us about your firefighting experience. Your credibility is shot until you back yourself up...else there's really nothing to discuss with you.

Lying does that for you.

 

[007]

http://www.airtanker.org/memorial.htm

2002 was my last year, I remember shootin the crap with Craig in the back of 130 in CDC 5 days before California. Bad year, Rick was 2 weeks after that if I remember right, bad year.

 

[avbug]

I checked Craig out in some of the company airplanes in GEY. I flew with both Steve and Mike. I did my FE checkride in T-130. I'd flown with Rick and worked in the hangar with him, and Milt would borrow my car when he came to town. I did my 4Y type in T123.

It all seems like yesterday. I remember exactly where I was when I got the news for T-130...just getting set to launch on a fire. I was getting set to launch on another when I got the word on T-123...and set to launch on another when a reporter from Colorado called for an interview about fire, and those involved.

It's kind of a jolt to go back over the fatality list and think "has it been that long?" Seems like it just happened, each one.

I swapped airplanes several times last year with Gerry Marais, in SEATs. He was killed in one this year, in Colorado, early in the year. I didn't get to go to the funeral in the end, and has mixed feelings about it. A few weeks later I happened to go through the call list on my phone, and there was his name and number. I dialed the number, not sure what I was thinking. It went to his voice mail, and I listened to his voice for the last time.

I still haven't deleted it off the list...it just doesn't feel right.

 

[stupidpilot]

There's room for civil discussion after you pony up and tell us about your firefighting experience. Your credibility is shot until you back yourself up...else there's really nothing to discuss with you.

Lying does that for you.

1500 gallon Bambi bucket slung under my helicopter. Not the same as fixed wing I know, and obviously I don't have the experience you guys do. But being an ahole for no reason is uncalled for.

 

[avbug]

1,500 gallons in your bambi bucket. You're sure about that? There's a 1,320 gallon, and a 2,000 gallon bambi bucket produced.

How much does that bucket weigh?

For one who claims to be flying a heavy helicopter, you don't seem to know squat about fires...doesn't really add up.

 

[stupidpilot]

It's been a long time. I'm not current. I don't recall whether we used the 1320 or 2000 gal. I was just going from memory. Obviously I didn't recall correctly.

 

[avbug]

It doesn't matter. It could just as well have been a big bucket necked down. Buckets seldom get filled, and even then a lot of it is gone by the time it gets over the fire.

You must have been flying large equipment in any case. Aside from the Vertol, Skycrane, and a couple of Sikorsky's, there isn't a lot that hauls a bucket that big. Chinooks, too...military loads?

Military does some good work, and it's not a major role for military aviators...so they're not expected to know the fire business or be firefighters. They still do a good job and are always much appreciated over the fire.

From the perspective of the person about to lose their house...so is everyone else, too. If you're any of the above, then you've already earned your stripes.