737 Crash Near Athens

[KigAir]

Are the cockpit and passenger O2 masks fed from the same source on the 737?

 

[Singlecoil]

Are the cockpit and passenger O2 masks fed from the same source on the 737?

Nope. The pax have the chemical candles installed overhead each row of seats that release oxygen after the mask is pulled to start the chemical reaction. The pilots have a standard tank. As for the VNAV question, you first have to set in a new altitude in the MCP for VNAV to take you down. Could a passenger have seen the 35000 set in and dialed it down? Maybe. That would then take the airplane down at TOD. As for the fuel, most likely they had all six pumps on and the airplane would burn completely dry.

 

[Pugh]

Looked like a short flight...wouldn't the center tank be empty and the center pumps turned off anyway?

 

[falcon20driver]

Looks like the plane was a -300 http://www.jetphotos.net/census/aircraft2.php?msnid=737-29099

 

[Singlecoil]

Looked like a short flight...wouldn't the center tank be empty and the center pumps turned off anyway?

Could be, I'm not sure how long a flight it was. Whether or not there was center tank fuel, the airplane would most likely burn dry if the pilots were incapacitated at any given moment. Unless, they took off with less than 5000 lbs in the center tank and the pumps didn't have the mod, then they would have center tank fuel but the pumps would be off until 10000 feet. It sounds like these guys got to 35000, though, so that isn't likely. I would say the odds were excellent it was configured to burn dry.

 

[TurboS7]

Automation-yes. Lowest safe altitude GASP, Level Change select WHEWGASP, Speed Br.......EX........Wait I forgot something..........Blackness.(Four minutes later at 10,000 feet)

Sir, Sir all you alright this is your number 6 FA, here put this O2 mask on ...........

 

[machophil]

Well, the "3" have been completed.

what were the other two? air france and what?

 

[TurboS7]

737NG-Remembet the MCP(Master Control Panel) overrides anything and everything set in the FMC/VNAV. The only way the FMC would be in control is if the DH is set in the MCP window, then the VNAV would fly the airplane to the runway as long as everything had been properly programmed.

 

[TurboS7]

Maybe the Captain was in the john taking a leak. FO messed up.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Actually, I think this is the scenario that makes the most sense. (not freon of course, but air contamination). It is certainly possible to get contaminated bleed air.

I am going to have to disagree with you on this on ACK. With bleed air problems there is usually smoke and odor. If that were the case I would hope the crew went to 100% O2.

Passengers were saying it was "freezing". Which implies that the automatic temperature control was having problems, or perhaps that both packs were inop(?)

I really doubt this would be the problem. You cannot fly the B-737 above FL 250 with one pack inop. If the auto controller was having problems it would be very easy to go to manual control. However I really dont think that this is the problem.

Maybe suspected air conditioning smoke in the cockpit followed by deactivating the packs. This depressurizes the plane slowly, everybody goes on oxygen, and it gets cold as hell. The captain decides to go take a walk around, and collapses in the cabin, and the copilot passes out from the burning circuit boards or whatever he inhaled... The airplanes flies in level flight into rising mountainous terrain and that's why the tail survives. The cockpit door prevents any hero passengers from saving the day, even if they realized to copilot was passed out.

I doubt it. If you shut off both packs you are going to go down as low as you can. If the altitude is above the norm the Captain should not be walking around the "check things out". That is what the FA is for. If the Pilots are on 100% O2 then it should not matter if there are burning things around them. They should be able to breathe and take care of the task at hand.

Whatever happened it is a very bizarre accident. I am anxious to hear what happened on the tapes.

 

[TurboS7]

With the NG you can fly all the way to 410 with one pack and it will hold the cabin just fine. You can turn both packs off on a new airplane at 410 and it will hold the cabin. The FL250 is just a dispatch requirement.

 

[Dangerkitty]

With the NG you can fly all the way to 410 with one pack and it will hold the cabin just fine. You can turn both packs off on a new airplane at 410 and it will hold the cabin. The FL250 is just a dispatch requirement.

Was it an NG aircraft? Not trying to be a smartass because I have no idea.

 

[JimNtexas]

Perhaps the passengers could not get into the cockpit for the same reason the Captain could not if the F/O was incapacitated....the fortified cockpit door that cannot be unlocked from the cabin. Keeps hijackers out OK though! ARG!

~DC

That's a scary thought! I'd like to think of a reason it couldnt happen. But I can't.

 

[Pugh]

Was it an NG aircraft? Not trying to be a smartass because I have no idea.

737 Next Generation. Latest version of the 737 line. However, the -300 is what was used in this accident.

 

[9GClub]

How do you know it was between 1G but less than 2G's?

Because I know what a 2 G manuever feels like.

We are always at 1G unless we are weightless, pushing negative G's, or actually pulling more G's such as doing steep turns or aerobatics.

You're beating a dead horse, I got that part the first six times.

You didn't get a rise out of me. Quite the opposite. Posting the crap that you just posted just makes you out to look like a 40 hour student pilot tool. Oh wait, you are a 40 hour student pilot tool.

Granted, but yes I did get a rise out of you.

Enjoy the laugh. (It doesn't make you pull more G's though)

It does when I fall off my chair and decelerate as I hit the floor, genius.

Get off me about the 1+G stuff, technically there's nothing incorrect about it. Call me on some of the other stuff I've posted, sure, but this one is getting old.

 

[FN FAL]

Here's another news story with talk of charred bodies. If the plane ran out of fuel would there still be fire?

http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=1075856

Yea...the plane ran out of fuel halfway into it's trip, so the plane depressurized and everybody grabbed a mask that fell out of the ceiling? What are you talking about dude...running out of gas aint even on the the card table.

 

[FN FAL]

Perhaps the passengers could not get into the cockpit for the same reason the Captain could not if the F/O was incapacitated....the fortified cockpit door that cannot be unlocked from the cabin. Keeps hijackers out OK though! ARG!

~DC

I get what you're saying...it was a thought I had today as well...thanks to secure doors, no one...not even a 737 qualified pilot jumpseating in the back, could save the plane. Good observation.

 

[FN FAL]

Because I know what a 2 G manuever feels like.



You're beating a dead horse, I got that part the first six times.



Granted, but yes I did get a rise out of you.



It does when I fall off my chair and decelerate as I hit the floor, genius.

Get off me about the 1+G stuff, technically there's nothing incorrect about it. Call me on some of the other stuff I've posted, sure, but this one is getting old.

I hate to see a male get his ass kicked by a chick, especially since I spent the last three hours of this evening getting plates and silverware thrown at me because I grilled the chicken wrong tonight, but I think DK is going to make a hat out of your colon...

 

[redd]

Perhaps the passengers could not get into the cockpit for the same reason the Captain could not if the F/O was incapacitated....the fortified cockpit door that cannot be unlocked from the cabin. Keeps hijackers out OK though! ARG!

Except it was noted in one of the articles that the F-16 pilots noted pax in the cockpit, so the doors couldn't have been locked if that is true.

 

[FN FAL]

Except it was noted in one of the articles that the F-16 pilots noted pax in the cockpit, so the doors couldn't have been locked if that is true.

that's good information. Can you cite this redd? Not digging on you, but if have a news article from the web that you could scroll and paste, it would be great.

That's interesting stuff redd...when I heard the F-15 pilots only saw one pilot in the cockpit tonight, that's when my "this is wierd" flag went up.

 

[redd]

FN, here's a link:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...5aug15,0,2088268.story?coll=la-home-headlines

 

[FN FAL]

ok...to be fair, there's a mention of running out of fuel in this article. I had not heard that was an issue until now. Thanks Redd.

 

[Donsa320]

Except it was noted in one of the articles that the F-16 pilots noted pax in the cockpit, so the doors couldn't have been locked if that is true.

Yep, we'll see. The CVR should tell us if anyone finally got into the cockpit. The running out of fuel is an even bigger mystery which I doubt is true. They should have flown on to the middle of Eastern Europe if they had normal reserves.
The US NTSB will probably help in the investigation but they must be down to about the "D" team. They have people in Canada for Air France and also two helicopter crashes in Europe and Africa that they are involved in.

~DC

 

[VampyreGTX]

The initial autopsy have supposedly been done and they are saying the bodies that weren't charred were completely frozen. So this leads more to depressurization than just a faulty A/C... never heard of an AC system that will turn a human into an iceblock, literally.

 

[Dizel8]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050815/wl_nm/crash_greece_dc

More news: Frozen bodies, SMS message from pax about pilot, people in Cpit.

 

[Donsa320]

The initial autopsy have supposedly been done and they are saying the bodies that weren't charred were completely frozen. So this leads more to depressurization than just a faulty A/C... never heard of an AC system that will turn a human into an iceblock, literally.

I'm beginning to think these reports don't pass the smell test....frozen solid in a hour and a half,... right! But people seen in the cockpit by the F-16 pilots... but the 737 is out of fuel, just over Athens...hmmm. I would not be surprised if this was a cover-up and that the Royal Hellenic Air Force had shot the 73 down. Or it is imaginative reporting by the news agencies.

~DC

 

[Swede]

Lots of speculation. Here's what I bet happened.

Cap drops back to whee. There is an explosive depressurization, which dramatically cuts time of useful consciousness. The FO dons, but unfortunately, the O2 system is out of O2, or the valve is closed. Pax and FA's have some limited O2, which unfortunately only keeps them conscious enough to realize they are probably going to die. The Captain passes out in the aisle trying to get forward.

Within 15 minutes, most of the O2 aft is gone, and both pilots are probably in a deep hypoxic coma and very close to death.

I really think it's as simple as an empty or broken cockpit O2 system combined with a poor pre-flight, which might have recognized the problem.

 

[VampyreGTX]

I'm beginning to think these reports don't pass the smell test....frozen solid in a hour and a half,... right! But people seen in the cockpit by the F-16 pilots... but the 737 is out of fuel, just over Athens...hmmm. I would not be surprised if this was a cover-up and that the Royal Hellenic Air Force had shot the 73 down. Or it is imaginative reporting by the news agencies.

~DC

I wouldn't quite say frozen solid in an hour and a half is too unreasonable at the air temp at 35K'. Given standard temps, and estimating 30*C at the surface, standard decrease in temp would mean approximatly -40* at altitude. I don't see it taking all that long for a human body exposed to that temp to freeze. Why would they have to cover it up? Plane isn't responding to ATC, fighter pilots see the f/o slumped over in the cockpit and two non-crew members trying to take control of the airplane. Not mush reason not to suspect an attempted hijacking there and give the fire command. Though why wouldn't they have shot it down over the water instead of waiting until it was over populated land?

Anyway, the frozen report is "suppsedly" directly from the coroner. Here's the quote from the MSNBC article.

Most of the bodies recovered from the Cypriot plane that crashed into a mountain near Athens with 121 people on board were “frozen solid,” a Greek Defense Ministry source said on Monday.
“Autopsy on passengers so far shows the bodies were frozen solid, including some whose skin was charred by flames from the crash,” the source, with access to the investigation, told Reuters.

I also don't knwo where the fuel starvation came from as I don't see any reports of that. The ensuing fire, which got pretty intense from the video (they were using aerial foam drops to contain it) seems to indicate some fuel still on board.

 

[JimNtexas]

Is is not customary for the pilot flying to don an oxygen mask if the other pilot has to get out of her seat?

 

[falcon20driver]

Is is not customary for the pilot flying to don an oxygen mask if the other pilot has to get out of her seat?

Yes it is, and from what I understand they reported a cabin pressure problem to ATC, so someone should've definately had a mask on.