50% Capt the rest get top pay????

[trainerjet]

Actually, Mesa is hardly my "beloved", but unlike the hypocrites who scream the loudest, I believe how they conduct their business is their business. I worry about my own company and my own pilot group.

Now as far as the jumpseat goes and not being able to ride with you, no worries there I usually write a pass so that if an off line pilot needs it, it's there. I write off the expense on my taxes, but thanks any way.

WD.

Ah, so not only a hypocrite, but a morally corrupt one as well. One of aviation's shining stars. A true SEASONED PROFESSIONAL.

 

[SkySpray]

WD,

Trainerjet's point is exactly what I was trying to show you all along; that your noble self-righteous attitude towards Mesa is hypocritical. Did you not agree with me that "EVERY REGIONAL PILOT IS UNDERPAID"? Aren't you a regional pilot? So by accepting a position with Air Wisconsin, aren't you lowering the bar for people who would not normally work for such wages? How is that dissimilar from Mesa's acceptance of this TA?

"No, but that's different. I work for one of the higher paid regional airlines"... right? Before criticizing Mesa pilots for their decisions, just realize that YOU are also partially responsible for the low wages prevelant throughout the regional airline industry. As am I. Not everything is Mesa's fault, as you seem to imply.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I understand the Mesa situation pretty well (I think). I was at TSA when they were going through the J4J situation (they still are, in facto).

J4J seems like a better situation for a regional to be in than not. I would take the new jets and 1/2 the jobs vs. none of the above.

Also, the new UAL agreement talks about J4J for them, so that could come to pass in the future at AWAC.

The whole industry is in turmoil, and it is changing. What was a crappy idea 2 years ago, may be the best option now (& vice versa).

I hope that if you are a pilot, and you want to keep flying, you can find a way to do that!

Cliff
GRB

 

[rwelch]

wscrj
Check your pm's
rwelch

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WD,

Trainerjet's point is exactly what I was trying to show you all along; that your noble self-righteous attitude towards Mesa is hypocritical. Did you not agree with me that "EVERY REGIONAL PILOT IS UNDERPAID"? Aren't you a regional pilot? So by accepting a position with Air Wisconsin, aren't you lowering the bar for people who would not normally work for such wages? How is that dissimilar from Mesa's acceptance of this TA?

Man you are so way off base here it isn't even funny! First mesa is in no way shape or form anything like Air Wisconsin. Second we stood our ground to get something descent and if that's is in any way hypocricitcal then that's me. Third how can you even attempt to make the statement you made when your own GREED allowed you to as you put it turn down a job at SWA to go to AA. I did and still agree with you on the point that we are all under paid but by allowing a company to do what they did hurts every regional pilot who fought to get good contracts and if you are too blind to see that then it's best you stay out of the debate.

Look man the bottom line is all of us are going to have to weed thru this mess that mesa has left behind. I won't even try to comment on TJ's point because as a major driver he is totally out of the loop.

This ain't personel against you or TJ but merely a debate.

WD.

 

[SkySpray]

WD,

Your statements contradict themselves, so how am I the one being "off base". You make comments about me being "GREEDY" by prefering to work for AA versus SWA, yet you lambast Mesa pilots for not living up to the standards you have. Is everything a Catch-22 with you? If I choose AA, then I'm greedy; if I choose Southwest, then am I undercutting AA, Delta, and United? Based on your previous posts, I would assume the answer would be "yes" (afterall, SWA pays less than the "Big 3". At least for the time-being).

Believe it or not, comparing your great airline to Mesa is the same as comparing SWA to AA. Don't you understand that when Southwest pilots initially agreed to their current compensation plan, it was considerably lower than other major airlines? Again, that's probably "different" to you, because it didn't happen during your time with the airlines. Now, all of a sudden, you're on the anti-Mesa bandwagon because it happened during your tenure with Air Wisconsin.

To sum up my argument, I will leave you with your own words:
"...if that's is in any way hypocritical then that's me".

That's the point I've been trying to make all along (that you are a sanctimonious hyprcrite. You can have the "final say", as I am done banging the gong with you. -SS

 

[Speedtree]

You guys are all over the place I almost couldn't follow.

Lets also look at what a pilot is worth.


Regionals will always have their place flying RJs and Turboprops.

Southwest found a niche and yes they get paid less than AA etc. But they make a decent living. I would have no problem working for Southwest because they pay a decent wage for a 737 driver.

Air Wisconsin pays a decent wage for the aircraft they fly. I would like to see a bit more for the first year guys but hey.

I don't expect to make $75 an hour flying FO on a regional jet. I do expect to make $30 though.

I got lost in some of TDs thoughts, as well as others, but I do agree that Mesa lowered the bar of what an entry level regional jet pilot should make. As well as work rules and Quality of Life issues. I could work for McDonalds, be a manager in six months, make more money than a Mesa pilot, spend more time with my family at home, and play softball on the weekends and not be responsible for the lives of 30-50 people. If I had the choice I would probably choose the second.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Great post Speedtree. The only reason I started the thread was merely to point out that the TA was simply awful and bypasses the seniority system and thus weakens the contract process as a whole not just mesa. If they let JO get away with this whats next? What's worse is the effect that it has on all of us not just them. Many references were made with regard to my interest in AWA, apples to oranges but since it was brought up, AWA is standing the line to get an fair contract today!! This world ain't perfect and you are always going to have the highest and the lowest paid in the industry but when the way has been paved for you and you decide not to take it you effect us all. (I am not refering to you personally speedtree) just making a broad statement.

Fly safe folks.

WD.

 

[Brother Francis]

If they let JO get away with this whats next?

Republic is next- Already in progress.

 

[jetdriven]

Two parts, First HUD my thinking is not flawed it's a matter of not getting screwed by something as obvious as this. They, since you say that you didn't sign for this is affecting the ENTIRE REGIONAL MARKET!!! ACA is now looking at having to take concessions because of what your fellow co-workers signed. It is not my intention to berate you guys anymore just want to make sure that I have a clear picture of how it works (j4j) and how it bypasses the seniority system and now having read a great deal of it this evening, I think that I have it. No matter what the first blow has been landed and soon to follow is the destruction of other great contract benefits. The industry, with mesa's help is well on it's way to being just like an HMO.

WD.

Let me ask you this, trick daddy, if you have the ball's to answer it. Do you really think our contract caused ACA'a concession talks? How could that be, since our new contract is incrementally better in every way?
Hey, did we cause USAIR's cuts? AMR's? UAL? YX's? I guess MESA is the root of all evil.
You must exist in a vacuum, WD. The airlines have lost more money in a year than they have EVER MADE! UAL lost over 2 BILLION dollars in one quarter! and if UAL suspends operations you had better get your resume' ready. just dont apply at MESA, becuase we have enough of your type here. BUT you're still welcome on our jumpseats.

i await your response.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

JetDriven, first you must let the rest of us have some of what you have been drinking. Mesa contract is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM EVEN IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS ACA. Not pay and certainly not work rules so tell me how is your contract better than theirs?? Oh I know, it's the only place that the pilots will give up half of their captain poistions and top fo pay to a outsider new hire, or maybe it's the 8days off per month because as you know that's the best in the industry. NO NO it is most certaintly that weak a$$ raise you get every 18mos. Now as for you other question on how YOUR contract effected others, our mgt has already put together a powerpoint outlineing your pay and said other will be forced to fall in line with athat structure. I will say this, our MEC has something that your doesn't BALLS!!!!!!! and he has already told us that he will not allow your sorry a$$ contract will not be used against this pilot group. Finally, I would rather fly for Ameriflight than work for mesa so you enjoy you job there and drop me a line from time to time on how that super seniority is working!!!

See Ya

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Dam, typed so fast on that post that I found several typos.
WD.

 

[wscrj]

Actually WD, you did not read JetDriven's post correctly. He said the new Mesa contract in an improvement over the previous Mesa contract. His point is that if Mesa's contract is better than the old one, how exactally does that lead to concessions at ACA?

Also, the minimum days of for line holders under the new Mesa contract is 10, not 8. The 8 day minimum is for Reserve pilots.

Glad to see that common sense prevailed and you reversed your decision to refuse Mesa jumpseaters (when you upgrade). You mentioned arriving at that decision after speaking with your "brethren." Are these fellow AirWis pilots or the pilots that visit this board? I urge you not to ever think of the jumpseat as a weapon. THat line of thinking eventually puts all of us in a more difficult position. You need not like someone to respect them. Besides, how can you say that you dislike so many people that you have never met...do you always form your opinions with so little information.

You are and always will be, along with all pilots at Air Wis, welcome in my jumpseat.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Wscrj,

That was after speaking with several of the pilots of AWAC. I guess that most of us (regional pilots) feel betrayed by you mesa guys. This level of aviation has for far too long been considered "just a place to build time" and that may have been true prior to the RJ. It was imparative that you guys get a good contract because all it was going to take is for one to agree to something substandard and we all would pay the price. We all know that the economy is in the toilet but we also know that the RJ is the wave of the future and that most if not all regoinals are making money and not losing. Now this whole whipsaw mess is happening all over now because one guy was able to pull it on his pilot group and it worked. I also blame ALPA for the conflict of interest that it represents. ALPA took care of it's major player in all of this (USAIR) but left the regional (mesa) hanging out there to swing. You guys could have and should have struck, JO may have fired you and the freedom guys would have been freedom scabs for life plus with the continued boycott by ALPA in the deal JO would at some point have no choice but to give in and as part of you guys returning ALL freedom scabs are to be let go!!! I really just wish you guys would have put up some kind of fight.

WD.

 

[hawkowl88]

Mesa pilots are cowards

J4J as structured is an abomination. It violates the seniority system and threatens the wage structure of the entire industry. If you want to hire furloughed pilots, fine! If you want to pay them 10 times the money of other new hires, fine! But off the street captains?!?!

I would love to play poker with Mesa pilots. You had enormous leverage because USAir needed somebody to buy the jets, being bankrupt themselves. Everyone else turned down this piece of crap deal and you are the only group that caved. The majors need, absolutely can not survive without their regional partners. When you are on the verge of Ch. 7 you don't (usually) get to dictate terms. You would have done far better to stand firm.

If the rest of us do stand firm and reject J4J, it won't become industry standard. Growth at any cost is the philosophy of the cancer cell.

A former Mesa pilot.