50% Capt the rest get top pay????

[Wiskey Driver]

I knew that the J4J mesa got was going to hurt. Just think some of you guys in the right seat for two yrs ready to up grade get to continue that sit and watch what is commonly refered to as a STREET CAPT takes your slot. Ouch!! that must sting and the rest of you get to watch as you make $20.00/hr while a new hire gets 15/16 yr pay. Wow I know that stings but what the he11, you stopped freedom pay and benefits shouldn't matter or should it??

Laughing every time I hear Air shuttle or freedom on the radio.

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Not even close, I am only a few numbers away from the last round of upgrades so unless they are doing it really really soon I wouldn't bet on it. Now lets get down to the real. You said that mesa's current pilots won't fly with the street capts and those getting 14yr pay. Hummmm so two questions arise now 1st why do they need you and second if your current pilots don't fly with them then this must mean that it's a seperate company and if it's a seperate company, what's the difference between what you have now and what you got from freedom?? Sounds a lot like alter ego they way you put it. But lets call a spade a spade you will fly with them and you will watch as they pass you by with super seniority, but hey don't get mad at me YOU SIGNED FOR IT.

WD.

 

[C150Heavy]

Wiskey Driver
You are one cold dude. I hope someone shows you more compassion than you have shown the Mesa boys.

 

[wscrj]

Whiskey's on the bottle.

Well said Hud. You been stuck in MIA yet?

Whiskey, you seem a very vocal (yet mostly ignorant) poster on this board. DO you base any of your decisions on thought, or do you just stick with emotion and rhetoric. Let me fill you in on J4J with some FACTS, so that your future posts will be brimming with practical and pertinant information. That is your aspiration, is it not?

ANY new jet added to US AIR is now under the J4J. That's because we were already flying the maximum allowed under the US Pilots contract. To add more, the US Pilots thought they should get a pice of the action. For every new airplane, half the crews will be current Mesa pilots and half will be furloughed US pilots. Of their half, half again will be CA and half will be FO. The CA's will be 1st year CA pay, and the FO's will get max (year 7 I believe) FO pay. Their "super seniority" goes as far as being able to hold jet slots when otherwise their seniority would not allow it. For all other purposes, they are new hires. Example, a US CA will get to be CA as a new hire, and ....thats it. For bidding lines.....last. For bidding vacation.....last. For travel, junior assignments, and whatever else pertains to seniority.....last. Yes, you are right....some "new hire" Us Air guys will be CA's out of their relative seniority on the Mesa list. They will, however hold that position on a jet that they brought with them. Also, they are limited to the US Air Express operation; they will not fly in the America West/United/Frontier/Mesa systems.

Now lets look at numbers. Let's say 50 new jets, actually less than has already been agreed to, but I'd like to keep the numbers simple. At 5 crews/jet, thats 500 NEW pilots jobs created. Follow me? Now, 250 of those jobs go to US pilots, giving them 125 CA slots and 125 FO slots. The OTHER 125 CA slots and 125 FO slots go to existing, and FUTURE Mesa pilots.

Also, these furloughed pilots are Mesa employees, going through Mesa groundschool on Mesa simulators, bidding Mesa schedules, and, as will be the case, sitting RSV because thats what their seniority can hold. There is no seperate certificate, or special schedules or crewrooms or handshakes.

Now, to sum up. 50 new jets...none of which were here before J4J, equals 500 new jobs at Mesa. 250 of those jobs go to present and future Mesa employees. Of course, this is in addition to the new jobs created by the 15 CRJ-700 and 25 CRJ-900, oh and the 10 new Dash-8's going to DEN. Lets add it up. 50+25+15+10 equals 100. Thats 1000 new pilots job at Mesa in the coming months. To be fair, a few of these jets are already staffed by Freedom pilots, but the new contract has secured a special place for most of them.

On a seperate but serious note, I spoke with a couple of Air Wisconsin CA's last week in DEN. I can't remember their names so I'll call them Jack and Daniel. Jack&Daniel said that in the event of a Chapter 7 situation at UA, Air Wisconsin would suspend operations. Is this true? Are you persuing alternate codeshare partners in that event?

Lastly, I would like to extend an invitation for you to Jumpseat on Mesa at any time. Any and all Air Wisconsin pilots are always welcome on my airplane. I refuse to play games with a hard earned and desperatey needed seat that belongs to us all.

Good luck with upgrade.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Two parts, First HUD my thinking is not flawed it's a matter of not getting screwed by something as obvious as this. They, since you say that you didn't sign for this is affecting the ENTIRE REGIONAL MARKET!!! ACA is now looking at having to take concessions because of what your fellow co-workers signed. It is not my intention to berate you guys anymore just want to make sure that I have a clear picture of how it works (j4j) and how it bypasses the seniority system and now having read a great deal of it this evening, I think that I have it. No matter what the first blow has been landed and soon to follow is the destruction of other great contract benefits. The industry, with mesa's help is well on it's way to being just like an HMO.

WD.

 

[SkySpray]

Whiskey,

Everyone has the option (including you) to be self-righteous, however, why would you post something like this? Just want to show how great of a guy you are for maintaining such high ethical standards?

I'm glad that you "chose" to work for a decent airline. As everyone in this industry knows (well, almost everyone), regional airlines are a roll of the dice. One year, Eagle is the best place to be, two years later it's Comair. Who woulda thunk it? Two years ago everyone I knew was going to AA, Delta or United. Now they're happy to get a job flying a crop-duster.

Guys like me, who turned down a Southwest job back in the day and opted for AA instead are out on the street with no hopes of returning in the forseeable future. Instead of flying a 737 out of PHX, I'm flying an Air Tractor outta podunk AZ. Roll of the dice. I'm glad it rolled correctly for you.

Oh yeah, and a quick question here. I remember posts from you a few months back, pondering whether you'd "stay at AirWis and upgrade" or "go to America West". Whatever happened to that? I can't believe that someone like yourself would ever consider working for a "second-tier" major airline like America West. Afterall, they're the lowest paid major in the industry, and you'd be "lowering the bar" for your fellow pilots by accepting a job with them.

I think that a person of your stature should hold out for AA, United or Delta. aloha

 

[Wiskey Driver]

C150Heavy

Compasion has nothing to do with it. Companies thru out history have always wanted max out put for as little pay and other benefits as possible. It takes many many years to get contracts up to an acceptable level and when they are you ALWAYS ask for one higher than the last group to sign. When you do this you insure that your group is well protected. When the actions of one effect the entire group in a negetive fashion should they be shown compasion? That crap is effecting every carrier at this level and soon every company is going to threaten alter ego as a weapon. The chain is only as strong as it's weakest link and now the entire ship is at risk.

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I remember posts from you a few months back, pondering whether you'd "stay at AirWis and upgrade" or "go to America West". Whatever happened to that? I can't believe that someone like yourself would ever consider working for a "second-tier" major airline like America West. Afterall, they're the lowest paid major in the industry, and you'd be "lowering the bar" for your fellow pilots by accepting a job with them.

I think that a person of your stature should hold out for AA, United or Delta. aloha [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry to hear about your situation it's a sad day when folks are out of work. Now the difference here is as clear as crystal. AWA TURNED DOWN WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS CRAP!!!!! They continue to tow the line even in this market. I knew they were in negotiations when I looked their way, and i have been informed that they will have no more classes this yr even thought they may be short handed. Man you know that we all live by the contracts we have at our companies and if you start to sell them out what's left?

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I think that this is what you said WSCRJ. I am glad to see that you are happy with the street capts. portion of your contract. Out of seniority is no good for the industry but I don't expect you to understand that... As for the whole jumpseat thing, I have reversed my position on that after having the benefit of speaking with several of my brethren. The jumpseat is open to all that we have an agreement.


A. Filling of Vacancies

1. For each small jet added, exclusive of spare small jets, and scheduled to the TSA fleet under the provisions of paragraph A. above, TSA will:

a. Offer two (2) small jet captain positions or fifty percent (50%) of those positions, whichever is greater (but no more than the greater of two (2) positions or fifty percent (50%) of the positions); and two (2) small jet first officer positions or fifty percent (50%) of those positions, whichever is greater (but no more than the greater of two (2) positions or fifty percent (50%) of the positions), to the pilots on the US Airways Group, Inc. Affected Pilots List; and

b. Offer two (2) small jet captain positions or fifty percent (50%) of those positions (whichever is greater), and two (2) small jet first officer positions or fifty percent (50%) of those positions (whichever is greater), to the pilots on the Trans States Airlines Seniority List in accordance with their seniority.

2.The Company agrees that no more than 50% of New Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) will be made available to Affected Pilots and U pilots on a cumulative basis in accordance with the Jets for Jobs Protocol. At no time shall the cumulative total of Vacancies held by U pilots exceed 50%.
(Move to Side Letter)
3.2. For the purpose of filling vacancies under these provisions, a TSA EMB pilot qualified or awarded a class prior to the class awards for the small jets vacancies program shall not be included in the calculation of the minimum position requirements of C.1.

5.3. An Affected Pilot on the most current APL or a U pilot who has been hired pursuant to paragraph C.1 shall fill “Backfill Vacancies”, in accordance with the Jets for Jobs Protocol. If no such pilot bids/accepts a position through the small jets vacancies program, the position will be filled in accordance with the TSA CBA.

6.4. A Vacancy shall be eliminated, and shall not be included in the formula delineated in paragraph C.1, if no Affected Pilot has accepted employment to fill the Vacancy and no U-Pilot has bid the Vacancy within a specified and reasonable time from posting of such Vacancy. In such case the cumulative total of Vacancies held by U-Pilots at TSA shall be less than 50% and all New Vacancies shall be subject to the provision of paragraph C.1.

7.5. All other vacancies shall be filled by pilots on the Trans States Airlines Seniority List in accordance with the Collective Bargaining Agreement (“TSA CBA, CBA”) between TSA and ALPA.

8.If an APL pilot or a U pilot bids any vacancy other than a “Vacancy” as defined in Appendix A, he shall forever thereafter be handled in accordance with the basic Agreement. (Seems to contradict paragraph C.1.a. and should be moved to a Side Letter)

B. General

1. The sole purpose of this Letter of Agreement is to adjust the requirements of Section 24.C.1 of the CBA; it does not alter, amend, or adjust any other sections. Specifically, all pilots hired from the “APL” shall comply with the one (1) year probationary period as outlined in the TSA CBA.

2. TSA Aircraft N801HK through N812HK, operating in accordance with US Airways LOA 79, shall not be retired or removed from service prior to removing or retiring all Jets for Jobs aircraft, which have been acquired in accordance with this LOA.

3. Either party may reopen this Letter of Agreement for renegotiation if:

a. US Airways, Inc. and the Air Line Pilots Association modify the terms of the Jets for Jobs Protocols.

4. The provisions of this letter of agreement shall cease to be in effect if:

a. TSA fails to place additional small jets into service with US Airways, acquired in accordance with the Jets for Jobs program, within twelve months of signing of this Letter of Agreement.

 

[SkySpray]

Well, my friend, all I'm saying is that before you go barking down the throats of Mesa guys, wait until you've walked in their shoes.

Someday, the situation at Air Wisconsin may not be like it is now. You're "few numbers" from upgrade may turn into a few hundred (hopefully not). Wait until morale is at an all-time low, then you'll get an idea of how/why people agree to such things. Drastic situations = drastic measures. Your attitude is quite similar to those who spent time at regionals, were lucky enough to get hired at a major, then immediately began barking about how regionals are ruining the industry (all from the comfort of their MD80, 737, etc). Again, I'm glad that you decided to work for a great regional. What if you had not been accepted at Air Wisconsin, and ended up with a job at Mesa? It is very likely that you would have a completely different perspective. It is very easy for you to sit on the outside looking in, and proclaim "no way would I have voted yes on that!". Easy to say when your RJ upgrade is looming in the near future.

I just don't understand this whole regional pilot bashing other regional pilot attitude. I'll let you in on a little secret here: EVERY regional pilot is underpaid. No matter if you work for Mesa, Eagle, Skywest, Comair, or your venerable Air Wisconsin. I worked for Eagle, so I cannot take a holier-than-thou attitude. I worked for wages that were, and continue to be sub-standard. Eagle was a great place at the time I was there, and there were plenty of self-righteous pilots who would spout drivel like "I can't believe the wages that those guys at CoEx (or whomever) work for!", or "can you believe they approved that TA over at {enter regional airline here}??". Just like in ordinary life, many of those who view themselves as being "on top" find a need to degrade those they feel are inferior to them; just to validate themselves.

So go ahead and laugh everytime you hear Air Shuttle on the radio. You can rest comfortably that you made a great choice at Air Wisconsin, and knowing there's no way a quality place like that could ever be in the same situation as Mesa.
aloha

 

[Wiskey Driver]

SkySpray,

Your words hit home, EVERY REGIONAL PILOT IS UNDER PAID!!!! So why help owners like JO continue to HMO our profession? I worke for Trans States so I know how it is to be paid $hit wages and I don't even dare to imagine the wages at Great Lakes. But this is only partly about money, it's mainly about the continued destruction of our contracts. Now many people voiced their displeasure with my comments this evening (I love the freedom this board stands for) but no-one is looking at what is really happening to our contracts. This is only the first step now how long before cabatage makes it's appearence???? When that happens we may as well all start looking for new careers. My only point is we live and die by the verbage of our contracts and if we sell them short we have nothing...

WD.

 

[SkySpray]

Well, first and foremost, "substandand" TA's have been accepted by airlines many many years before the one in question. If you think this is the first one that began the downspiral, then you need to take a look at the airline industry since deregulation.

The fact is that the airline industry as we knew it will no longer exist in the not-so-distant future. Things will NEVER return to "normal" (whatever that means), regardless of Mesa's acceptance of this TA. I'm not trying to validate the "yes votes", just pointing out the reality of the situation. God forbid you get furloughed, you may just find yourself looking for work at some of the companies which you view as having "lowered the bar" in relation to pilot wages, etc. This entire chain of events was set in place far before Mesa accepted this TA.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Well I have thought about this long and hard and if it gets to that I will either go corprate or hang up the spurs. The fact of the matter is, being an airline pilot is not as glammerous as it once was. I guess the days of the young kid entering the cockpit and the pilots showing him all of the buttons and guages and watching his face light up with total amazment are all but gone. Keep you fingers crossed that cabatoge doesn't make it's way to us.

WD.

 

[trainerjet]

WD,

Don't you have some giant h@rd on to go to work at America West, and leave that great job you have there at Air Wis? Chomping at the bit to trade in your "industry leading" contract on one that's bringing up the rear? Yep, sounds like your raising the bar, all right. What a hypocrite.

Oh, and by the way. You are NOT welcome on my jumpseat. I am generating my own "list". Right now it includes you, "mckpickle" and "eaglefly" . Others will be added as they are "identified".

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Well TJ I see that you once again are out of the loop so I will make and attempt to enlighten you. When I joined AWAC they were in contract negotiations at the time. They, WE stood fast held the line and DEMANDED what was fair, unlike your beloved mesa. AWA recently turned down an offer because it was below industry standard THEY TOO ARE HOLDING THE LINE AND DEMANDING WHAT IS FAIR, something that you haven't seem to grasp as of yet. Now as far as the jumpseat goes and not being able to ride with you, no worries there I usually write a pass so that if an off line pilot needs it, it's there. I write off the expense on my taxes, but thanks any way.

WD.

 

[trainerjet]

Actually, Mesa is hardly my "beloved", but unlike the hypocrites who scream the loudest, I believe how they conduct their business is their business. I worry about my own company and my own pilot group.

Now as far as the jumpseat goes and not being able to ride with you, no worries there I usually write a pass so that if an off line pilot needs it, it's there. I write off the expense on my taxes, but thanks any way.

WD.

Ah, so not only a hypocrite, but a morally corrupt one as well. One of aviation's shining stars. A true SEASONED PROFESSIONAL.

 

[SkySpray]

WD,

Trainerjet's point is exactly what I was trying to show you all along; that your noble self-righteous attitude towards Mesa is hypocritical. Did you not agree with me that "EVERY REGIONAL PILOT IS UNDERPAID"? Aren't you a regional pilot? So by accepting a position with Air Wisconsin, aren't you lowering the bar for people who would not normally work for such wages? How is that dissimilar from Mesa's acceptance of this TA?

"No, but that's different. I work for one of the higher paid regional airlines"... right? Before criticizing Mesa pilots for their decisions, just realize that YOU are also partially responsible for the low wages prevelant throughout the regional airline industry. As am I. Not everything is Mesa's fault, as you seem to imply.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I understand the Mesa situation pretty well (I think). I was at TSA when they were going through the J4J situation (they still are, in facto).

J4J seems like a better situation for a regional to be in than not. I would take the new jets and 1/2 the jobs vs. none of the above.

Also, the new UAL agreement talks about J4J for them, so that could come to pass in the future at AWAC.

The whole industry is in turmoil, and it is changing. What was a crappy idea 2 years ago, may be the best option now (& vice versa).

I hope that if you are a pilot, and you want to keep flying, you can find a way to do that!

Cliff
GRB

 

[rwelch]

wscrj
Check your pm's
rwelch

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WD,

Trainerjet's point is exactly what I was trying to show you all along; that your noble self-righteous attitude towards Mesa is hypocritical. Did you not agree with me that "EVERY REGIONAL PILOT IS UNDERPAID"? Aren't you a regional pilot? So by accepting a position with Air Wisconsin, aren't you lowering the bar for people who would not normally work for such wages? How is that dissimilar from Mesa's acceptance of this TA?

Man you are so way off base here it isn't even funny! First mesa is in no way shape or form anything like Air Wisconsin. Second we stood our ground to get something descent and if that's is in any way hypocricitcal then that's me. Third how can you even attempt to make the statement you made when your own GREED allowed you to as you put it turn down a job at SWA to go to AA. I did and still agree with you on the point that we are all under paid but by allowing a company to do what they did hurts every regional pilot who fought to get good contracts and if you are too blind to see that then it's best you stay out of the debate.

Look man the bottom line is all of us are going to have to weed thru this mess that mesa has left behind. I won't even try to comment on TJ's point because as a major driver he is totally out of the loop.

This ain't personel against you or TJ but merely a debate.

WD.