50% Capt the rest get top pay????

[SkySpray]

WD,

Your statements contradict themselves, so how am I the one being "off base". You make comments about me being "GREEDY" by prefering to work for AA versus SWA, yet you lambast Mesa pilots for not living up to the standards you have. Is everything a Catch-22 with you? If I choose AA, then I'm greedy; if I choose Southwest, then am I undercutting AA, Delta, and United? Based on your previous posts, I would assume the answer would be "yes" (afterall, SWA pays less than the "Big 3". At least for the time-being).

Believe it or not, comparing your great airline to Mesa is the same as comparing SWA to AA. Don't you understand that when Southwest pilots initially agreed to their current compensation plan, it was considerably lower than other major airlines? Again, that's probably "different" to you, because it didn't happen during your time with the airlines. Now, all of a sudden, you're on the anti-Mesa bandwagon because it happened during your tenure with Air Wisconsin.

To sum up my argument, I will leave you with your own words:
"...if that's is in any way hypocritical then that's me".

That's the point I've been trying to make all along (that you are a sanctimonious hyprcrite. You can have the "final say", as I am done banging the gong with you. -SS

 

[Speedtree]

You guys are all over the place I almost couldn't follow.

Lets also look at what a pilot is worth.


Regionals will always have their place flying RJs and Turboprops.

Southwest found a niche and yes they get paid less than AA etc. But they make a decent living. I would have no problem working for Southwest because they pay a decent wage for a 737 driver.

Air Wisconsin pays a decent wage for the aircraft they fly. I would like to see a bit more for the first year guys but hey.

I don't expect to make $75 an hour flying FO on a regional jet. I do expect to make $30 though.

I got lost in some of TDs thoughts, as well as others, but I do agree that Mesa lowered the bar of what an entry level regional jet pilot should make. As well as work rules and Quality of Life issues. I could work for McDonalds, be a manager in six months, make more money than a Mesa pilot, spend more time with my family at home, and play softball on the weekends and not be responsible for the lives of 30-50 people. If I had the choice I would probably choose the second.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Great post Speedtree. The only reason I started the thread was merely to point out that the TA was simply awful and bypasses the seniority system and thus weakens the contract process as a whole not just mesa. If they let JO get away with this whats next? What's worse is the effect that it has on all of us not just them. Many references were made with regard to my interest in AWA, apples to oranges but since it was brought up, AWA is standing the line to get an fair contract today!! This world ain't perfect and you are always going to have the highest and the lowest paid in the industry but when the way has been paved for you and you decide not to take it you effect us all. (I am not refering to you personally speedtree) just making a broad statement.

Fly safe folks.

WD.

 

[Brother Francis]

If they let JO get away with this whats next?

Republic is next- Already in progress.

 

[jetdriven]

Two parts, First HUD my thinking is not flawed it's a matter of not getting screwed by something as obvious as this. They, since you say that you didn't sign for this is affecting the ENTIRE REGIONAL MARKET!!! ACA is now looking at having to take concessions because of what your fellow co-workers signed. It is not my intention to berate you guys anymore just want to make sure that I have a clear picture of how it works (j4j) and how it bypasses the seniority system and now having read a great deal of it this evening, I think that I have it. No matter what the first blow has been landed and soon to follow is the destruction of other great contract benefits. The industry, with mesa's help is well on it's way to being just like an HMO.

WD.

Let me ask you this, trick daddy, if you have the ball's to answer it. Do you really think our contract caused ACA'a concession talks? How could that be, since our new contract is incrementally better in every way?
Hey, did we cause USAIR's cuts? AMR's? UAL? YX's? I guess MESA is the root of all evil.
You must exist in a vacuum, WD. The airlines have lost more money in a year than they have EVER MADE! UAL lost over 2 BILLION dollars in one quarter! and if UAL suspends operations you had better get your resume' ready. just dont apply at MESA, becuase we have enough of your type here. BUT you're still welcome on our jumpseats.

i await your response.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

JetDriven, first you must let the rest of us have some of what you have been drinking. Mesa contract is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM EVEN IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS ACA. Not pay and certainly not work rules so tell me how is your contract better than theirs?? Oh I know, it's the only place that the pilots will give up half of their captain poistions and top fo pay to a outsider new hire, or maybe it's the 8days off per month because as you know that's the best in the industry. NO NO it is most certaintly that weak a$$ raise you get every 18mos. Now as for you other question on how YOUR contract effected others, our mgt has already put together a powerpoint outlineing your pay and said other will be forced to fall in line with athat structure. I will say this, our MEC has something that your doesn't BALLS!!!!!!! and he has already told us that he will not allow your sorry a$$ contract will not be used against this pilot group. Finally, I would rather fly for Ameriflight than work for mesa so you enjoy you job there and drop me a line from time to time on how that super seniority is working!!!

See Ya

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Dam, typed so fast on that post that I found several typos.
WD.

 

[wscrj]

Actually WD, you did not read JetDriven's post correctly. He said the new Mesa contract in an improvement over the previous Mesa contract. His point is that if Mesa's contract is better than the old one, how exactally does that lead to concessions at ACA?

Also, the minimum days of for line holders under the new Mesa contract is 10, not 8. The 8 day minimum is for Reserve pilots.

Glad to see that common sense prevailed and you reversed your decision to refuse Mesa jumpseaters (when you upgrade). You mentioned arriving at that decision after speaking with your "brethren." Are these fellow AirWis pilots or the pilots that visit this board? I urge you not to ever think of the jumpseat as a weapon. THat line of thinking eventually puts all of us in a more difficult position. You need not like someone to respect them. Besides, how can you say that you dislike so many people that you have never met...do you always form your opinions with so little information.

You are and always will be, along with all pilots at Air Wis, welcome in my jumpseat.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Wscrj,

That was after speaking with several of the pilots of AWAC. I guess that most of us (regional pilots) feel betrayed by you mesa guys. This level of aviation has for far too long been considered "just a place to build time" and that may have been true prior to the RJ. It was imparative that you guys get a good contract because all it was going to take is for one to agree to something substandard and we all would pay the price. We all know that the economy is in the toilet but we also know that the RJ is the wave of the future and that most if not all regoinals are making money and not losing. Now this whole whipsaw mess is happening all over now because one guy was able to pull it on his pilot group and it worked. I also blame ALPA for the conflict of interest that it represents. ALPA took care of it's major player in all of this (USAIR) but left the regional (mesa) hanging out there to swing. You guys could have and should have struck, JO may have fired you and the freedom guys would have been freedom scabs for life plus with the continued boycott by ALPA in the deal JO would at some point have no choice but to give in and as part of you guys returning ALL freedom scabs are to be let go!!! I really just wish you guys would have put up some kind of fight.

WD.

 

[hawkowl88]

Mesa pilots are cowards

J4J as structured is an abomination. It violates the seniority system and threatens the wage structure of the entire industry. If you want to hire furloughed pilots, fine! If you want to pay them 10 times the money of other new hires, fine! But off the street captains?!?!

I would love to play poker with Mesa pilots. You had enormous leverage because USAir needed somebody to buy the jets, being bankrupt themselves. Everyone else turned down this piece of crap deal and you are the only group that caved. The majors need, absolutely can not survive without their regional partners. When you are on the verge of Ch. 7 you don't (usually) get to dictate terms. You would have done far better to stand firm.

If the rest of us do stand firm and reject J4J, it won't become industry standard. Growth at any cost is the philosophy of the cancer cell.

A former Mesa pilot.

 

[wscrj]

Hawk/Whiskey

It is not my intention to change your opinions. From your posts it is easy to gather that you have made up your minds using what little information, be it true or false, was available to you at the time--just as the Mesa pilots made their decisions based off of information available to them. If you don't approve of their decision...it is really no matter, since the decision was not yours to make. If venting about Mesa pilots serves as some pseudo pat on the back regarding your own contracts, then perhaps you should consider what you would have done under different circumstances. What would you do now? What would you tell your respective managments to do if they came at you looking for concessions? If your flying was being transferred to another certificate that your airline paid for? If your codeshare partner was in backruptcy? If your codeshare partner was prepared to deal with the alter-ego airline?

THe new Mesa contract is an improvemt over the previous one. Is it everything Mesa Pilots hoped for? Certainly not. Does it assure our growth and potentially leave us in a stronger position to weather this industry storm? Likely so. You may not like the Mesa contract, but the fact is that you don't have to work under it. And before you regurgitate some nonsense about Mesa's contract causing concessions, remind yourself that your contract is strong, your pilot group is strong, your airline is better, right? To accept concessions would simply be to admit the hypocrisy of your arguement, right? Well, don't let that happen. Take great satisfaction that what the Mesa pilots had to contend with, you did not...and you will not....ever, right?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WSCRJ,

I am prepared to take issue with parts of your statements. If you think that the contract that you voted for won't have a ripple effect throughout the entire regional market then not only are you sadly mistaken but you are not as intelligent as I gave you credit for. Every airline is taking this economy to attempt to renogotiate terms of their agreements with a/c makers as well as their employees. In the regional market everyone knows that the RJ is a real money maker and every regional partner knows that the main line needs them as Delta found out with the comair strike. I mentioned in an earlier post that even our management has hinted to the fact that most regionals will have to conform to the mesa standard. Now herein lies the problem, mesa has no standard. You have allowed the wolf into the chicken coop and now it's going to be hard as he11 to get him out. I use that example because now another air carrier is faced with an alter ego situation and we all know that if works for one keep doing it until someone puts a stop to it. Did it ever dawn on you guys that USAIR came to several other regionals before ever comming to mesa?? Why do you think all the others turned them down? The other carriers even NON UNION Skywest would never get it past the pilot group. You guys had an excellent opportunity to really make a great statement and set an example, instead you failed and announced to the entire regional industry that it's ok to whipsaw.

WD.

 

[hawkowl88]

wscrj,

Don't give me that walk a mile in my mocassins crap. I've BEEN there. Notice I signed my post "former Mesa pilot". I was prepared to put my money where my mouth is. Mesa was a hideous place to work and now it's the laughingstock. You always have a choice...I'd walk in anyones resume that voted against this b.s. Upgrade to EMB120 captain 6 mos. CRJ captains 2 1/2 years. You ALWAYS have a choice.

Also, Skywest management did come to us with that mickey mouse, chicken-little-the-sky-is-falling argument J4J. We were told that we could lose the UAL flying and if we didn't take J4J we were looking at possible furloughs.

We voted 88% to put the proposal where the sun don't shine, and that we would rather deliver pizzas than lower the bar.

HANG YOUR HEADS IN SHAME.

 

[RUhiring?]

You guys are wound too tight.

You are going to give yourselves an ulcer.

The Mesa vote it over. Whether or not you agree with it is a moot point. There is nothing that can be done about it now, except to take a stand yourselves when presented with the same situation. (Which will happen)

 

[wscrj]

Whipsawing..

I hear you loud and clear Whiskey, and I understand your point. However, let me clear up a little about whipsawing at Mesa. It's a very old tradition here...even Hawk will agree with me on that point. Freedom was just the latest attempt, and it was working well. The CCair folks were used also, and eventually managements attempt would have been successful, had ALPA national not refused to sign the contract. In turn, JO shut CCAir down. Our best bet to END freedom, and END the whipsawing, was a new scope language for the entire MESA AIR GROUP, not just Mesa Airlines. During negotiations, we were offered our own ALPA written scope as part of a package proposal, which ALPA told us was either a mistake or a miscalculation on managements part...who knows for sure. The problem was that to alter any part of the proposal would void the ENTIRE thing, scope included. I.E. a change to J4J, and it all goes away. By accepting the proposal, we could capture Freedom flying under a SINGLE seniority list, re-instate the CCAir folks, and have the whole of MESA AIR GROUP under one contract with ALPA. That is quite simply the way it was laid out here. What are your predictions for an industry with MESA/CCAIR ALPA pilots on the street, and Freedom growing like a proverbial weed. Is that truly the way you wanted it to turn out?

 

[wscrj]

Just curious Hawk. If you think you can do so in a civil tone, tell me when you left Mesa and went to SkyWest.

Also, if you had not left and were still here during the recent vote, what would you be doing now? For the purposes of this scenario, you may consider all other regionals off limits with the exception of CHQ, TSA and whoever else might be hiring.

WHat would you do with Freedom airlines at SkyWest?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

TSA just approved J4J with USAir.

The new UAL and AA TA's talk about J4J with them.

If this comes to pass, then ALMOST ALL of the regional airlines will be facing the question of J4J. If UAL/AA/USAir want J4J, then the only way to expand any regional will be to go it alone, or accept J4J.

Continental, Alaska, Midwest, and ATA have their own feed, so they aren't affected. SWA, and Jet Blue don't have feed, so they aren't affected.

They only feeders not under J4J pressure are Mesaba/Big Sky/Pinnacle for NWA (as NWA hasn't mentioned J4J yet), and AWAC feeding AirTran (although they're under J4J pressure from UAL).

There's almost no one left. Do you J4J, or do you miss out on the huge RJ growth, and let the other feeders pass you by?

CLiff
GRB

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Cliff,

Understand that we are under no j4j pressure from UAL. We we told that if ANY UEX carrier wanted 70CRJ's that they would have to take furloughed pilots from UAL with details to be worked out later. Our MEC has already spoken to the UAL MEC on the subject and has advised that the UAL pilots will not be looking to enter as captains on any equipment thus keeping the seniority system in tact.

WD.

 

[jerichka]

Hey guys, this is quite a debate you're waging. Hope I'm not intruding or straying from the theme, but, is this why Mesa is able to offer an interview to a 300TT pilot? I'm just finishing my comm/Inst./multi and considering their PACE program. I'm 35 and don't want to instruct. I want to get on the flightline ASAP. Low pay doesn't seem to bother me at this point. I just want a job.

 

[WileE]

As far as I know....

The only way for a 300 tt pilot to get an interview is if he went through Mesa's home grown San Juan progam. Otherwise the times were pretty much 1000 tt and 200 me. If a non San Juaner 300 time pilot got an interview it's probably more to do with being related or sleeping with someone in HR.