47 Grads of Gulfstream hired by Pinnacle

[CFI'er]

Question For 100LL... Again

Explain what you just wrote:

"I agree with whoever said that PFT simply tells the company that you don't think you are worth anything.
They remember this during negotiations."

I can hear it now, during negotiations; "Since we have 100 PFT's and only 75 former CFI's, we will lower the pay increase to the PFTer's and raise the pay for CFIsr's becauce they paid their dues.

"PFT airlines, for the most part, have crappy contracts."
????????

"Good luck PFTers - sincerely."
???????

"But I still do feel bad for all the non-wealthy 1000-1500 hr CFIs
who have busted their tails and have to wait."

What you are saying is that the PFTer's are doing it right.

Explain why the regionals lose about 30% to 40% of those non-wealthy CFI's during "Basic Indoc", while the majority of PFTer's make it through "Basic Indoc". Could it be that the PFTer's are trained better?

While we are at it, what is your definition of PFT?

 

[100LL... Again!]

This is a long post, but I WAS asked to explain.


From my prev post:
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I agree with whoever said that PFT simply tells the company that you don't think you are worth anything. They remember this during negotiations."
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Perhaps it would be better to say that it is a chicken-and-egg question. How did some airlines get away with PFT during the boom a couple of years ago when you could just about write your ticket to a regional? Simple. Some people couldn't get hired at a 'good' regional. No slam on them. Sometimes the best people we know get turned down while the company inexplicably hires some slacker that ends up needing 5 extra sim sessions because they won't study. Or they slack in groundschool. Seen it happen. Lots. Company pushed the slackers through anyway!

So then where do they go? To a crappy regional where you get treated like dirt. No slam on the pilots. Gotta do what you gotta do.

Can't get hired there? Off to the PFT airline. (I hate to see this happen to a good guy/gal.)

I have no problem with a PFTer who was otherwise qualified, if that is what they have to do.

Now let's examine the low timer. These PFT programs have an advertising angle that suggests that you are a loser if you are a CFI. Be an FO! Not a CFI! I would like to see that kind of thinking banished from the planet.

So if someone is willing to PFT, it tells management that building turbine time is more important than having a CAREER.

In sales we called it 'dropping you pants'.
Coming right down to your lowest price before the buyer even STARTS negotiating.

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I can hear it now, during negotiations; "Since we have 100 PFT's and only 75 former CFI's, we will lower the pay increase to the PFTer's and raise the pay for CFIsr's becauce they paid their dues.
-------------------

This is not what I was implying would happen.


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"PFT airlines, for the most part, have crappy contracts."
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More accurate would have been to say that I know of few PFT airlines with above average contracts.

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"Good luck PFTers - sincerely."
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I'm saying that I don't harbor ill will to PFT pilots - but I hate the system.

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Explain why the regionals lose about 30% to 40% of those non-wealthy CFI's during "Basic Indoc", while the majority of PFTer's make it through "Basic Indoc". Could it be that the PFTer's are trained better?
-----------------------
This is a very hard to believe statistic. Must be due to reason stated below.

I should preface this by saying that this may be true in very recent times with the hiring boom that has occurred. I sincerely hope that the time to go from CFI to regional returns to the 2-3 year range. PFT allows low time guys to cut the experience-building curve.


Bottom line:

There are FOs who are trainees in the truest sense of the word, and there are FOs who are basically captains without the seniority to hold the left seat. My preference is for the latter.
My opinion only. I see no danger in it becoming law. Oh well.


My definition of PFT? Really, anytime where you pay cash to get experience working for a 121 operator. PFT varies somewhat.
Varying degrees of awful. The worst part is the get-there-before-everyone-else attitude that it helps foster.

Go fly boxes. You'll respect yourself in the morning.
(Kidding - mostly)

 

[wapilot]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...if you pay to get a 737 type in order to apply to SWA for example, are you a PFT puke? Most training I've heard of cost $$. These people at Pinnacle must just be real stupid to hire these pilots. PROBABLY NOT!

 

[bobbysamd]

737 type

If you pay to get a 737 type in order to apply to SWA for example, are you a PFT puke?

No, it's not the same as P-F-T. The 737 type you earn belongs to you. It goes on your pilot certificate. You can market it to anyone who operates 737s and not just Southwest only. P-F-T is when you (1) must remit cash to a companyfor your training as a condition of employment with said company and (2) the training is esoteric and strictly applicable to that company. In other words, if you can take it elsewhere, it is not P-F-T.

We've had that discussion before.

PFT varies somewhat. Varying degrees of awful. The worst part is the get-there-before-everyone-else attitude that it helps foster.

(emphasis added)

Well put.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I suppose from from a glass-half-empty-glass-half-full argument, simply working for a regional is 'PFT' because it is costing you money to work for such low pay. NOBODY thinks this way to my knowledge.

Is SWA PFT? Well, I felt a lot better about the situation when they would interview pilots without the type rating, then you had to go get it before you get a class date. I understand that this has changed back to the old way.

The big difference, since everything is relative, is that the cost of the type is relatively low compared to the economic benefit of employment with SWA.

If the PFT regional had you paying, say, $1,000, I would not probably be so against it due to the fact that it seems to be a reasonable cost that the average person could bear. Also, SWA is not using their version of PFT to stock their flight decks with low time pilots.

The real part of PFT that I can't stand is the attitude that they are going to spend money to get a position before they are truly qualified.

It goes back to what I said before. There are FOs who are basically trainees for quite a while- low time, no REAL experience. There are FOs who quickly become as capable as captains, but simply lack the seniority to upgrade.

Again, I prefer the latter. If you get a regional job at low time (as some of my good friends have), more power to you. be grateful.
Please don't think that you were some sort of super pilot. Please don't think that 'my school's training was so superior'. Hogwash. I've seen these so-called cream of the crop pilots struggle mightily and even wash out. How come their wonderful school let 'em slip through? I'll give you a hint: check-writing ability. Don't kid yourself.


BTW: Thanks for agreeing Bobbysamd, I think you have the same viewpoint as I do on the state of the business.

 

[wapilot]

In other words, if you can take it elsewhere, it is not P-F-T.


Gulfstream graduates 1- are not employees 2-are not guaranteed a job 3- are obviously taking this training and using it somewhere else (flying for Airlink and other regionals). I know Gulfstream pilots that fly for Frontier, Air Wisconsin, Colgan, Airlink, Air Tran, Skywest, & Great Mistakes, just to name a few. I know Gulfstream graduates that can't fly worth a @#$% and don't belong anywhere close to a 121 or 135 operation. There are others that are grreat people and great pilots. Unless people that are doing the hiring are just plain morons, this approach to training seems to work. I have a four year degree, I was working on my CFI before 9-11, took both writtens, made all my lesson plans and will get my certificate before the two years allowed is over. I've worked throughout the aviation industry for over 14 years. All I ask is that we all try not to make blanket statements about all Gulfstream pilots and their reasons for going through their program.

 

[bobbysamd]

Taking the training elsewhere

Let me clarify that point further.

Company training is esoteric. Each airline does things its own way. You can have six different regionals who all fly, say, 1900s. However, each regional will have its own ideas on SOPs for operating the airplane, although it's the same airplane. Which means, for example, you train at and fly 1900s at Gulfstream. You fly off your hitch there and get a 1900 job at Mesa or in Alaska. Although you may have 250 hours in 1900s from Gulfstream, you have to learn what may be completely new procedures at your new job. I realize that you know the 1900 systems already, but that's a small advantage. Others at class will catch up to you soon enough. Same in the sim.

The same thing applies vice versa. You come to Gulfstream from Mesa with 1900 time. You still have to learn Gulfstream's way of doing business.

I'll provide a non-aviation example. My first legal job was in a probate and estates shop. I toiled there nearly 4½ years. I learned a lot. Then I got my current job in a PI and Workers' Comp office. Although I had 4½ years of paralegal experience, most of what I had learned was useless and completely inapplicable in my new job, i.e. esoteric. Aside from my new office having a different routine, I had a new area of law to learn and I had to learn it fast. About the only thing both places had in common was they were lawfirms.

Now, let's say you earned an unlimited 1900 type at Gulfstream. That is on your certificate. It is yours. It does not belong to Gulfstream.

Maybe a way to reconcile in one's mind Southwest's 737 type requirement is to compare it to corporate flying. Usually corporate wants someone with a type and time in type. It's just a qual they want. Look at it another way. What if you're a United furloughee with a 737 type? United upgraded you on its nickel. Losing your United job is very much a kick in the nuts, but your 737 type is yours. Free to market to Southwest, who is interviewing.

I understand 100LL's point about commuter low pay. But might a better term for it be "pay through the nose?" I know that it improves after the first year.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Heck, when I first went to 3M, the F/Os weren't allowed to touch the gear or flaps. They were instructed to "keep your hands out of the business section of the aircraft" (the entire throttle quadrant)

 

[100LL... Again!]

OFF TOPIC RANT:

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Heck, when I first went to 3M, the F/Os weren't allowed to touch the gear or flaps. They were instructed to "keep your hands out of the business section of the aircraft" (the entire throttle quadrant)
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WTF?? What kind of Prima Donnas do you have to fly with anyway? Whether I was qualified or not to fly where you do, I'd rather give up flying than share a cockpit with such a poor example of CRM. I hope it's not as bad as you make it sound. Guys like that led to the accidents that brought CRM to the fore anyway.


Their attitude: Until you've proven yourself, you aren't cr-p.

The CORRECT attitude: Until you've proven otherwise, you ARE competent.

That type of behavior is usually rooted in a person's deeply held need to feel superior to others. Give me a ragtag bunch of freight guys or commuter pilots anyday. My kind of people.



Anyway, back to PFT.
The problem isn't the PAYING. Several years ago, a bunch of regionals made it the only way to get on. It is simple supply and demand.

My problem is that is is/has been used in a way that provides a way for underqualified pilots to shortcut the experience building curve. Any 300 hr pilot that thinks that they are above flight instructing should never be allowed to fly for a living, IMO.
NOTE: I did not say pilot who did not instruct. I said pilots who feel that they are ABOVE doing instruction. You know who you are. People who think this way, ironicly, could probably stand to benefit the most from such experience.

Some of this recent crop of low time pilots may experience some challenges upgrading. (SOME, not all.) Seen it happen.

Sometimes I wish the FARs required 1200TT before you could be a 121 FO.

Flame away.

 

[bobbysamd]

Underqualfied and cutting ahead

Originally posted by 100LL... Again!
My problem is that is is/has been used in a way that provides a way for underqualified pilots to shortcut the experience building curve. Any 300 hr pilot that thinks that they are above flight instructing should never be allowed to fly for a living, IMO.
NOTE: I did not say pilot who did not instruct. I said pilots who feel that they are ABOVE doing instruction. You know who you are. People who think this way, ironicly, could probably stand to benefit the most from such experience.

On the other hand, do you want such people giving instruction? They will take out their bad attitudes on their poor students/customers.

Not only is it bad policy to pay to shortcut the quals, P-F-T obviates opportunities for the better qualified. P-F-T is a fairness issue. It is not fair to cut in line ahead of others. Doing so violates the basic rules of society. I go back to my previous examples of people who routinely cut in line at the grocery store and the bank, and being cut off in traffic. Bear in mind how you feel when these things happen to you.