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47 Grads of Gulfstream hired by Pinnacle
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Re: P-F-T
Good question. I don't remember the refund policy word for word, but it basically went like this: After you finished the first 2 weeks of ground school (indoc) you had given up all but 7k of your 26k "investment". The 7k decreased until the day of your 85% checkride in the Level D sim. If you fail the checkride you're pretty much screwed. They'd give you a second try at the sim ride, but after that you're money is long gone.
bobbysamd said:
Good question. I don't remember the refund policy word for word, but it basically went like this: After you finished the first 2 weeks of ground school (indoc) you had given up all but 7k of your 26k "investment". The 7k decreased until the day of your 85% checkride in the Level D sim. If you fail the checkride you're pretty much screwed. They'd give you a second try at the sim ride, but after that you're money is long gone.
blade230 said:
Yes, GTA worked very well for me. Those that are lucky do very well after leaving GIA. Unfortunately, in the couple of years I was at GIA I saw many friends finish the FO program and not get any jobs. Not to mention the fact that it takes the average new line pilot at GIA about 6-9 months to finish their 250. For heaven's sake, look at the seniority list! Half of the pilots on it are FOs in the First Officer program still working on their 250!! What is Cooper going to do when he needs to upgrade people to captain and all the FOs on the list are 250hr probationary pilots? I'll tell you what he'll do: he'll hire street captains again and charge them 20k for the "opportunity" to sit left seat in one of his ratty old airplanes. Things just keep getting worse over there. So yes, I did very well after leaving the 'stream. However, most people aren't so lucky.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
As long as there are wealthy pilots, there will be PFT.
Some people can't wait to wear polyester before they are truly qualified to get in that front seat. And don't give me any B.S. about passing 121 checkrides. That is only paper qualification.
It is like training a new student only in the traffic pattern. After an amazingly low number of hours, they can solo. Everyone EXCEPT the student knows that the student's skills and knowledge are full of holes. If the student is humble, they willl soon learn that fact, and seek to fill in those holes. If they are cocky, they will disregard that fact and remain a 'cardboard character'.
I'd rather start a job that I was 100% capable of performing than be a wannabe.
Here's a little test:
How much informal 'IOE' do you get on regular line trips?
Hint: If you've got more than 200 hours in the plane and you are still getting help and advice any more than ocassionally, you are sort of a student pilot.
Do your captains let you hand fly?
Can you fly to ATP standards every day - without the A/P?
As airplanes become more automated, the need for real pilot talent will diminish, and we can probably expect zero-timers to right into a jet. (Yes, I'm exaggerating).
The real test will be when all these guys start upgrading en masse. Never been in charge of an airplane. Some will do well. Some won't.
I agree with whoever said that PFT simply tells the company that you don't think you are worth anything.
They remember this during negotiations.
PFT airlines, for the most part, have crappy contracts.
Good luck PFTers - sincerely.
But I still do feel bad for all the non-wealthy 1000-1500 hr CFIs
who have busted their tails and have to wait.
Some people can't wait to wear polyester before they are truly qualified to get in that front seat. And don't give me any B.S. about passing 121 checkrides. That is only paper qualification.
It is like training a new student only in the traffic pattern. After an amazingly low number of hours, they can solo. Everyone EXCEPT the student knows that the student's skills and knowledge are full of holes. If the student is humble, they willl soon learn that fact, and seek to fill in those holes. If they are cocky, they will disregard that fact and remain a 'cardboard character'.
I'd rather start a job that I was 100% capable of performing than be a wannabe.
Here's a little test:
How much informal 'IOE' do you get on regular line trips?
Hint: If you've got more than 200 hours in the plane and you are still getting help and advice any more than ocassionally, you are sort of a student pilot.
Do your captains let you hand fly?
Can you fly to ATP standards every day - without the A/P?
As airplanes become more automated, the need for real pilot talent will diminish, and we can probably expect zero-timers to right into a jet. (Yes, I'm exaggerating).
The real test will be when all these guys start upgrading en masse. Never been in charge of an airplane. Some will do well. Some won't.
I agree with whoever said that PFT simply tells the company that you don't think you are worth anything.
They remember this during negotiations.
PFT airlines, for the most part, have crappy contracts.
Good luck PFTers - sincerely.
But I still do feel bad for all the non-wealthy 1000-1500 hr CFIs
who have busted their tails and have to wait.
Question For 100LL... Again
Explain what you just wrote:
"I agree with whoever said that PFT simply tells the company that you don't think you are worth anything.
They remember this during negotiations."
I can hear it now, during negotiations; "Since we have 100 PFT's and only 75 former CFI's, we will lower the pay increase to the PFTer's and raise the pay for CFIsr's becauce they paid their dues.
"PFT airlines, for the most part, have crappy contracts."
????????
"Good luck PFTers - sincerely."
???????
"But I still do feel bad for all the non-wealthy 1000-1500 hr CFIs
who have busted their tails and have to wait."
What you are saying is that the PFTer's are doing it right.
Explain why the regionals lose about 30% to 40% of those non-wealthy CFI's during "Basic Indoc", while the majority of PFTer's make it through "Basic Indoc". Could it be that the PFTer's are trained better?
While we are at it, what is your definition of PFT?
Explain what you just wrote:
"I agree with whoever said that PFT simply tells the company that you don't think you are worth anything.
They remember this during negotiations."
I can hear it now, during negotiations; "Since we have 100 PFT's and only 75 former CFI's, we will lower the pay increase to the PFTer's and raise the pay for CFIsr's becauce they paid their dues.
"PFT airlines, for the most part, have crappy contracts."
????????
"Good luck PFTers - sincerely."
???????
"But I still do feel bad for all the non-wealthy 1000-1500 hr CFIs
who have busted their tails and have to wait."
What you are saying is that the PFTer's are doing it right.
Explain why the regionals lose about 30% to 40% of those non-wealthy CFI's during "Basic Indoc", while the majority of PFTer's make it through "Basic Indoc". Could it be that the PFTer's are trained better?
While we are at it, what is your definition of PFT?
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
This is a long post, but I WAS asked to explain. 
From my prev post:
-----------------------------------------------
I agree with whoever said that PFT simply tells the company that you don't think you are worth anything. They remember this during negotiations."
-----------------------------------------------
Perhaps it would be better to say that it is a chicken-and-egg question. How did some airlines get away with PFT during the boom a couple of years ago when you could just about write your ticket to a regional? Simple. Some people couldn't get hired at a 'good' regional. No slam on them. Sometimes the best people we know get turned down while the company inexplicably hires some slacker that ends up needing 5 extra sim sessions because they won't study. Or they slack in groundschool. Seen it happen. Lots. Company pushed the slackers through anyway!
So then where do they go? To a crappy regional where you get treated like dirt. No slam on the pilots. Gotta do what you gotta do.
Can't get hired there? Off to the PFT airline. (I hate to see this happen to a good guy/gal.)
I have no problem with a PFTer who was otherwise qualified, if that is what they have to do.
Now let's examine the low timer. These PFT programs have an advertising angle that suggests that you are a loser if you are a CFI. Be an FO! Not a CFI! I would like to see that kind of thinking banished from the planet.
So if someone is willing to PFT, it tells management that building turbine time is more important than having a CAREER.
In sales we called it 'dropping you pants'.
Coming right down to your lowest price before the buyer even STARTS negotiating.
-------------------
I can hear it now, during negotiations; "Since we have 100 PFT's and only 75 former CFI's, we will lower the pay increase to the PFTer's and raise the pay for CFIsr's becauce they paid their dues.
-------------------
This is not what I was implying would happen.
------------------
"PFT airlines, for the most part, have crappy contracts."
------------------
More accurate would have been to say that I know of few PFT airlines with above average contracts.
----------------------
"Good luck PFTers - sincerely."
----------------------
I'm saying that I don't harbor ill will to PFT pilots - but I hate the system.
-----------------------
Explain why the regionals lose about 30% to 40% of those non-wealthy CFI's during "Basic Indoc", while the majority of PFTer's make it through "Basic Indoc". Could it be that the PFTer's are trained better?
-----------------------
This is a very hard to believe statistic. Must be due to reason stated below.
I should preface this by saying that this may be true in very recent times with the hiring boom that has occurred. I sincerely hope that the time to go from CFI to regional returns to the 2-3 year range. PFT allows low time guys to cut the experience-building curve.
Bottom line:
There are FOs who are trainees in the truest sense of the word, and there are FOs who are basically captains without the seniority to hold the left seat. My preference is for the latter.
My opinion only. I see no danger in it becoming law. Oh well.
My definition of PFT? Really, anytime where you pay cash to get experience working for a 121 operator. PFT varies somewhat.
Varying degrees of awful. The worst part is the get-there-before-everyone-else attitude that it helps foster.
Go fly boxes. You'll respect yourself in the morning.
(Kidding - mostly)
From my prev post:
-----------------------------------------------
I agree with whoever said that PFT simply tells the company that you don't think you are worth anything. They remember this during negotiations."
-----------------------------------------------
Perhaps it would be better to say that it is a chicken-and-egg question. How did some airlines get away with PFT during the boom a couple of years ago when you could just about write your ticket to a regional? Simple. Some people couldn't get hired at a 'good' regional. No slam on them. Sometimes the best people we know get turned down while the company inexplicably hires some slacker that ends up needing 5 extra sim sessions because they won't study. Or they slack in groundschool. Seen it happen. Lots. Company pushed the slackers through anyway!
So then where do they go? To a crappy regional where you get treated like dirt. No slam on the pilots. Gotta do what you gotta do.
Can't get hired there? Off to the PFT airline. (I hate to see this happen to a good guy/gal.)
I have no problem with a PFTer who was otherwise qualified, if that is what they have to do.
Now let's examine the low timer. These PFT programs have an advertising angle that suggests that you are a loser if you are a CFI. Be an FO! Not a CFI! I would like to see that kind of thinking banished from the planet.
So if someone is willing to PFT, it tells management that building turbine time is more important than having a CAREER.
In sales we called it 'dropping you pants'.
Coming right down to your lowest price before the buyer even STARTS negotiating.
-------------------
I can hear it now, during negotiations; "Since we have 100 PFT's and only 75 former CFI's, we will lower the pay increase to the PFTer's and raise the pay for CFIsr's becauce they paid their dues.
-------------------
This is not what I was implying would happen.
------------------
"PFT airlines, for the most part, have crappy contracts."
------------------
More accurate would have been to say that I know of few PFT airlines with above average contracts.
----------------------
"Good luck PFTers - sincerely."
----------------------
I'm saying that I don't harbor ill will to PFT pilots - but I hate the system.
-----------------------
Explain why the regionals lose about 30% to 40% of those non-wealthy CFI's during "Basic Indoc", while the majority of PFTer's make it through "Basic Indoc". Could it be that the PFTer's are trained better?
-----------------------
This is a very hard to believe statistic. Must be due to reason stated below.
I should preface this by saying that this may be true in very recent times with the hiring boom that has occurred. I sincerely hope that the time to go from CFI to regional returns to the 2-3 year range. PFT allows low time guys to cut the experience-building curve.
Bottom line:
There are FOs who are trainees in the truest sense of the word, and there are FOs who are basically captains without the seniority to hold the left seat. My preference is for the latter.
My opinion only. I see no danger in it becoming law. Oh well.
My definition of PFT? Really, anytime where you pay cash to get experience working for a 121 operator. PFT varies somewhat.
Varying degrees of awful. The worst part is the get-there-before-everyone-else attitude that it helps foster.
Go fly boxes. You'll respect yourself in the morning.
(Kidding - mostly)
Last edited:
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
737 type
We've had that discussion before.
Well put.
No, it's not the same as P-F-T. The 737 type you earn belongs to you. It goes on your pilot certificate. You can market it to anyone who operates 737s and not just Southwest only. P-F-T is when you (1) must remit cash to a companyfor your training as a condition of employment with said company and (2) the training is esoteric and strictly applicable to that company. In other words, if you can take it elsewhere, it is not P-F-T.wapilot said:
We've had that discussion before.
(emphasis added)
Well put.
Last edited:
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
I suppose from from a glass-half-empty-glass-half-full argument, simply working for a regional is 'PFT' because it is costing you money to work for such low pay. NOBODY thinks this way to my knowledge.
Is SWA PFT? Well, I felt a lot better about the situation when they would interview pilots without the type rating, then you had to go get it before you get a class date. I understand that this has changed back to the old way.
The big difference, since everything is relative, is that the cost of the type is relatively low compared to the economic benefit of employment with SWA.
If the PFT regional had you paying, say, $1,000, I would not probably be so against it due to the fact that it seems to be a reasonable cost that the average person could bear. Also, SWA is not using their version of PFT to stock their flight decks with low time pilots.
The real part of PFT that I can't stand is the attitude that they are going to spend money to get a position before they are truly qualified.
It goes back to what I said before. There are FOs who are basically trainees for quite a while- low time, no REAL experience. There are FOs who quickly become as capable as captains, but simply lack the seniority to upgrade.
Again, I prefer the latter. If you get a regional job at low time (as some of my good friends have), more power to you. be grateful.
Please don't think that you were some sort of super pilot. Please don't think that 'my school's training was so superior'. Hogwash. I've seen these so-called cream of the crop pilots struggle mightily and even wash out. How come their wonderful school let 'em slip through? I'll give you a hint: check-writing ability. Don't kid yourself.
BTW: Thanks for agreeing Bobbysamd, I think you have the same viewpoint as I do on the state of the business.
Is SWA PFT? Well, I felt a lot better about the situation when they would interview pilots without the type rating, then you had to go get it before you get a class date. I understand that this has changed back to the old way.
The big difference, since everything is relative, is that the cost of the type is relatively low compared to the economic benefit of employment with SWA.
If the PFT regional had you paying, say, $1,000, I would not probably be so against it due to the fact that it seems to be a reasonable cost that the average person could bear. Also, SWA is not using their version of PFT to stock their flight decks with low time pilots.
The real part of PFT that I can't stand is the attitude that they are going to spend money to get a position before they are truly qualified.
It goes back to what I said before. There are FOs who are basically trainees for quite a while- low time, no REAL experience. There are FOs who quickly become as capable as captains, but simply lack the seniority to upgrade.
Again, I prefer the latter. If you get a regional job at low time (as some of my good friends have), more power to you. be grateful.
Please don't think that you were some sort of super pilot. Please don't think that 'my school's training was so superior'. Hogwash. I've seen these so-called cream of the crop pilots struggle mightily and even wash out. How come their wonderful school let 'em slip through? I'll give you a hint: check-writing ability. Don't kid yourself.
BTW: Thanks for agreeing Bobbysamd, I think you have the same viewpoint as I do on the state of the business.
Last edited:
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