47 Grads of Gulfstream hired by Pinnacle

[Timebuilder]

I recall this one:

Wilmington to HOBEE, for the Surfn7 arrival. We're far enough off shore that the 10k/250 rule doesn't apply. We are hurtling through the increasingly dense atmoshpere, barely able to shout above the wind noise, copying ATIS for PBI, running the checklists, and watching for the plethora of flight students wandering along the shore from the various flight schools.

I have to laugh at it now, but I recall a certain amount of pucker factor that day.

 

[bobbysamd]

121 experience

I have spoken with some Captains that are on hiring boards. As a matter of fact, I have flown with some of them in the military. As you say, some look down on this route, but others have said that they would pefer someone that has had 121 experience over someone with only time flight instructing. In my class we had several (3) flight instructors with over 1000 hours total time going through the program to get the 121 experience and turbine time . . . . .

(emphasis added)

A problem I've found with a number of 121 captains is they have no clue and/or no recollection about "minor league" aviation. A number of them know nothing about GA. They tend to be in their own little heavy iron major airline netherworld. So, they hear that you can pay for "121 experience," say "yay, team, let's boogie," and tell you to go for it without understanding all implications and ramifications. They think it's great - because all they've heard is "121 experience." They did not listen, or otherwise were not cognizant of, how that experience was obtained. As someone wrote above, they're Captains now. They could care less.

(For example, ten years ago the U.S. airspace classification system changed. Anyone here remember or hear of the PCA? TCAs? ARSAs? You know them now as Class A, Class B and Class C, respectively. I started talking about it with a senior United Captain who was the co-owner of my company. He had no clue about it, didn't want to hear about, and could have cared less.)

Let's nail down how these Captains feel about how the 121 experience was obtained. Of course, they will prefer someone with 121 experience over lowly, bottom-of-the-barrel flight instructing. Would they prefer that the 121 experience was obtained by and through "paying dues" or paying for training. I'd venture a well-educated guess that they would prefer and respect the former over the latter.

One other point to ponder is how inexperience will play out at class. I wasn't at Mesa long enough to build up a large number of alumni, but I've followed a couple and I know they made it at 300 hours. I know that many do not - although the only aviation they know is Mesa. Compare it with experienced street hires. They have a better chance of making it because they've been around flying and are simply more experienced at flying - which enables them to think less about piloting the airplane and more about absorbing procedures.

I appreciate that you've worked in the business at a bunch of other jobs besides flying. I must disagree with your opinion about cutting in line. P-F-T is primarily about getting an airline job with fewer hours than the more experienced. If there was no P-F-T, there would be fewer instances of cutting in line.

 

[bobbysamd]

Furloughed NWA Pinnacle pilots

I wonder how some of those folks feel about current events. First, they're furloughed. Now, they're flying smaller equipment for a regional - with a P-F-T FO next to them while their more experienced friends are not flying.

Just a thought.

 

[Publishers]

Bobby

Bobby

While restraining on getting into this whole argument again, what I do expect is that the trend towards many new hires coming right from programs will accelerate when any type hiring starts again.

This would hold true whether or not it is a Gulfstream type program or a Comair Academy, or a Flight Safety or whoever.

The fact is that many regionals like the setup where these people come trained to a set way. Another factor is that they would like their FO's to be the younger group who will stay longer and who have not developed habits and independance that they do not want.

These programs are here to stay and will grow.

 

[Timebuilder]

These programs are here to stay and will grow.

I hope not.

If this is true, then all of those folks at small airports all over America will have little hope of getting a job.

Of course, the guys at Clonaid will make a mint. Then they can buy new "alien" outfits.

 

[stardog]

Re: Bobby

Bobby ...

The fact is that many regionals like the setup where these people come trained to a set way. Another factor is that they would like their FO's to be the younger group who will stay longer and who have not developed habits and independance that they do not want.

Uh oh. First you're debating with Bobby about PFT and now you're saying regionals prefer hiring younger inexperienced impressionable pilots. You might want to read some of his other posts first.. muaahaah

 

[bobbysamd]

HAH!! See, I told you . . . . .

The fact is that many regionals like the setup where these people come trained to a set way. Another factor is that they would like their FO's to be the younger group who will stay longer and who have not developed habits and independance that they do not want.

(emphasis added)

And people don't believe me when I complain about and share my experiences with age discrimination??!!?? While not exactly documented proof of same, based on your insights into the management end of aviation to which I'm not privy, your statement, Pub, implies it very strongly. You fell into that one, Pub.

Our friend Timebuilder on another thread also pointed out that younger people are easier to snow than we older folks. Primarily because we have been around longer and (should) know BS when we hear it.

In that regard, and Timebuilder found the word for it, P-F-T is a bamboozle job. Once again, leaving soul-selling and pilot-sellouts aside for the moment, with P-F-T you expose yourself to deceit, fraud and bad faith of the first order. Try to get back your money if you wash out . Get it out of your head, now, that you are a customer under P-F-T. You are no longer at flight school, where you can buy extra training if needed and whine and demand an instructor change(s) if he/she is riding you too hard. A non-P-F-T outfit will have an interest is your success because it hopes to recoup its investment in you.

Not that all older people are smarter than younger people, but someone younger and less-experienced is more likely to be bamboozled and less likely to know how to deal with it than someone older and more experienced.

MAPD has been successful because the only aviation environment its students know is Mesa - and all that it implies. Call it indoctrination. Others know better. Give these young ones a chance. They'll learn to recognize BS, just as I did and most of us do eventually.

 

[Publishers]

in effect

In effect, it is a numbers game like most business. It is not because young people are easy to snow. I was sort of disappointed in that comment because you should know that most of the people on these boards think that every management decision is some attempt to pull one over on the pilot corps.

The fact is that they are looking at the average time that they will get from the training from any given individual. If you hire a young man with 450 hours of intense training at one of these schools, he will likely be with you longer than if you hired someone older with jet time.

While you are right about the age descrimination, sometimes that works the other way. Back in the 70's when the airlines were really selective, they would not take anyone over say 35 years old for the same reasons as above. On the other hand, companies like EJA back then only wanted the ones over the age as they were more likely to stay and make it a career.

 

[bobbysamd]

Snowing the pilot corps

[Y]ou should know that most of the people on these boards think that every management decision is some attempt to pull one over on the pilot corps.

But, of course!! And what I wrote fits in with that absolutely. The young and impressionable can be snowed and, hence, have one pulled over on them. The older and more experienced know from it already and/or learned their lessons from a different college in the School of Hard Knox.

The fact is that they are looking at the average time that they will get from the training from any given individual. If you hire a young man with 450 hours of intense training at one of these schools, he will likely be with you longer than if you hired someone older with jet time.

All right. But, how much longer in reality? In these times, maybe for several years. But someone older will stay, too.

My other theory is the regionals hope and want you to leave. They don't want you to top out at scale and/or don't want you to vest in their retirement plan. Someone brought in at age 25 will stay only a few years until he/she builds time. For someone at 40+, the regional will likely be the last stop and he/she might stay til 60. At which time the regional will be responsible for disbursing the pilot's 401-K and health benies. It doesn't want to be stuck with the latter, for sure. Hence, they won't, or are most reluctant to, hire someone over 40.

The irony is that now regional pilots will be holding onto their seats for longer than management planned. These pilots will move up the scale - and the regionals will be stuck with paying the upper ends of scale, which they did not foresee. Although I'd bet most regional pilots are less than thrilled with having to stay longer than they planned, by default they put one over on management. I realize that management has its bags of tricks in return.

On the other hand, companies like EJA back then only wanted the ones over the age as they were more likely to stay and make it a career.

True. But that's an apples and oranges comparison - regional v. frax. The difference is one wants you to stay. The other does not want you to stay. Now, you will and it is stuck with you.

 

[PCL_128]

PFT discussion again!!!

I can't believe this has come up yet again. Are we going to have this discussion every week? In any case, here's my 2 cents:

As many people here know, I went to GIA. I worked there for a couple of years as a line pilot and CPT instructor (also as a CFI for their academy). I still have many friends there, including people in the training dept. I also talk with people in mgmt down there every couple of months to see what's up. I was down there a couple of weeks ago right after the latest set of interviews. Yes, 47 people were hired by Pinnacle out of about 55 who interviewed. They will start classes most likely in Feb or March along with the furloughed guys from NWA mainline.

I used to be an ardent supporter of what GIA was about. I used to defend PFT to everyone who challenged me about it. I used to think flight instructing had no merits. In short, my opinions changed.

Things changed drastically at GIA over the last year or so. Back when I worked in the training dept we would fail about 1/3 of the people that applied to the First Officer program (sim and written evals were required of all pilots applying). If you didn't perform to ATP standards, you didn't get into GIA. We didn't care if you only had 190 hours total right out of Comair's 141 program. We expected all applicants to perform to ATP standards regardless of experience level. During the last year they have relaxed the requirements. The written eval is a joke and the sim eval is more of a fun session in the 1900 sim than a test. Class sizes have quadrupled and failure rates on initial PC's (441 rides) have shot up. The POI for GIA is an old friend of the owner of GIA, so he just looks the other way on most things. GIA is not going to be able to keep up it's safety record for long the way things are going.

Gulfstream has stopped caring about the quality of the pilots they are producing. They are merely turning a hefty profit and that's all that matters to them. The VP of Flt Ops is trying his best to keep things safe, but upper mgmt only cares about the profits being pulled in from PFT. To sum things up, GIA is a big mess.

To those of you thinking about going to GIA: DON'T!!! GIA is currently making about 12-15k profit off of everyone that goes into the program. A couple of years ago it barely broke even, but since they raised prices and reduced standards and trng the profits have shot up. They are merely taking advantage of pilots. Please don't fall for their marketing schemes. Get your ratings at a local FBO and flight instruct for a little while. You won't be flying a jet right away, but that SCAB Tom Cooper won't be pocketing 15k of your hard earned dollars.

And as for the possible job you will get at Pinnacle, think about this: If you start at zero time now at GIA, you will finish the FO program in about 18 months. The chances that Pinnacle will still be hiring from GIA in 18 months are almost nothing.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

The written eval is a joke and the sim eval is more of a fun session in the 1900 sim than a test. Class sizes have quadrupled and failure rates on initial PC's (441 rides) have shot up. The POI for GIA is an old friend of the owner of GIA, so he just looks the other way on most things. GIA is not going to be able to keep up it's safety record for long the way things are going . . . .

They are merely turning a hefty profit and that's all that matters to them. The VP of Flt Ops is trying his best to keep things safe, but upper mgmt only cares about the profits being pulled in from PFT . . . . GIA is currently making about 12-15k profit off of everyone that goes into the program . . . . but since they raised prices and reduced standards and trng the profits have shot up. They are merely taking advantage of pilots . . . .

(emphasis added)

Your Honor, I rest my case.

Just one more question. How many of the washouts have received refunds of their P-F-T tuition?

I thought so . . . .

Thanks for having the integrity to speak up.

 

[blade230]

once again, 40, not 47.

 

[PCL_128]

Re: P-F-T

(emphasis added)

Your Honor, I rest my case.

Just one more question. How many of the washouts have received refunds of their P-F-T tuition?

Good question. I don't remember the refund policy word for word, but it basically went like this: After you finished the first 2 weeks of ground school (indoc) you had given up all but 7k of your 26k "investment". The 7k decreased until the day of your 85% checkride in the Level D sim. If you fail the checkride you're pretty much screwed. They'd give you a second try at the sim ride, but after that you're money is long gone.

 

[PCL_128]

once again, 40, not 47.

The last list I saw (about 3 weeks ago) was for 47. It's possible that they narrowed the list further before they called everyone and offered them the job, but I doubt it.

 

[blade230]

The number I was told was 40, the GTA website also says 40.

Also PCL-128, even though GTA has many problems, it sure worked well for you, getting you into an RJ at your age.

P.S. We have mutual friends.

 

[PCL_128]

The number I was told was 40, the GTA website also says 40.

Also PCL-128, even though GTA has many problems, it sure worked well for you, getting you into an RJ at your age.

P.S. We have mutual friends.

Yes, GTA worked very well for me. Those that are lucky do very well after leaving GIA. Unfortunately, in the couple of years I was at GIA I saw many friends finish the FO program and not get any jobs. Not to mention the fact that it takes the average new line pilot at GIA about 6-9 months to finish their 250. For heaven's sake, look at the seniority list! Half of the pilots on it are FOs in the First Officer program still working on their 250!! What is Cooper going to do when he needs to upgrade people to captain and all the FOs on the list are 250hr probationary pilots? I'll tell you what he'll do: he'll hire street captains again and charge them 20k for the "opportunity" to sit left seat in one of his ratty old airplanes. Things just keep getting worse over there. So yes, I did very well after leaving the 'stream. However, most people aren't so lucky.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL.....a little militant are we?

Aren't I always?

 

[stardog]

Gulfstream.. wow. I just looked and found out if I pay $24k, together with my current 1400 hours and ratings, I could finally be flying right seat in a 1900 Do they offer discounts? Like maybe if I could just fly for free or something...

 

[blade230]

That sure is the truth PCL_128.

See you soon.

 

[100LL... Again!]

As long as there are wealthy pilots, there will be PFT.

Some people can't wait to wear polyester before they are truly qualified to get in that front seat. And don't give me any B.S. about passing 121 checkrides. That is only paper qualification.

It is like training a new student only in the traffic pattern. After an amazingly low number of hours, they can solo. Everyone EXCEPT the student knows that the student's skills and knowledge are full of holes. If the student is humble, they willl soon learn that fact, and seek to fill in those holes. If they are cocky, they will disregard that fact and remain a 'cardboard character'.

I'd rather start a job that I was 100% capable of performing than be a wannabe.


Here's a little test:

How much informal 'IOE' do you get on regular line trips?

Hint: If you've got more than 200 hours in the plane and you are still getting help and advice any more than ocassionally, you are sort of a student pilot.
Do your captains let you hand fly?
Can you fly to ATP standards every day - without the A/P?

As airplanes become more automated, the need for real pilot talent will diminish, and we can probably expect zero-timers to right into a jet. (Yes, I'm exaggerating).

The real test will be when all these guys start upgrading en masse. Never been in charge of an airplane. Some will do well. Some won't.

I agree with whoever said that PFT simply tells the company that you don't think you are worth anything.
They remember this during negotiations.

PFT airlines, for the most part, have crappy contracts.


Good luck PFTers - sincerely.

But I still do feel bad for all the non-wealthy 1000-1500 hr CFIs
who have busted their tails and have to wait.