24 hours off in 7 days

[b82rez]

A little help.....

Flying 6 days in a row with no 24 hour period off. Scheduled to end at 2330 on the sixth day.

If you are late, knowing that your last leg will get you back after midnight are you legal?

Thanks in advance.

 

[SplitBar]

Yeah...that is legit. As long as the original schedule was legal. Legal to start, legal to finish.

 

[DrewBlows]

I disagree. You cannot do your last leg if you know it's going to take you into a seventh calender day without 24 hours off at some point.

"Legal to start, legal to finish" only applies to flight time limitations.

 

[regionalcap]

I agree with DrewBlows. I don't think that rule applies here. You could not depart knowing you would exceed the requirement. The "legal to start" is for flight time limitations.

 

[denny]

Agreed. You would not be legal in the situation described. We have similar situations with the Whitlow interpretation of max FAA duty days.

Similar scenario in your case. You can load up, taxi out and hold for takeoff. If your clearance to takeoff will put you wheels up such as to encroach on the 6 day/24 hour off limit then you must return to the gate and get off the plane. Not knowing or not recognizing that you will violate the rule in your case will still get you a violation. Knowing beforehand that you will violate the rule is spelled out in the regs which say a crewmember may not accept...

 

[SplitBar]

Actually, we are all wrong here. It would depend on what time you started duty on day 1 of your six day trip. You need the 24 hour rest in a 7 day span but it doesn't specify "calendar days". You have (6 x 24) hours to finish up your trip so add 144 hours to your report time to figure out what time past 11:30pm you can be on duty until. If the trip started at noon on day 1, you could stay on duty well past your scheduled end time to finish up. Of course you would have to take into account your daily duty limit also.

 

[maxblast72]

Actually, we are all wrong here. It would depend on what time you started duty on day 1 of your six day trip. You need the 24 hour rest in a 7 day span but it doesn't specify "calendar days". You have (6 x 24) hours to finish up your trip so add 144 hours to your report time to figure out what time past 11:30pm you can be on duty until. If the trip started at noon on day 1, you could stay on duty well past your scheduled end time to finish up. Of course you would have to take into account your daily duty limit also.

You are exactly right on FAA legality issue. Some airlines have contract rights to one calendar day off every 7 days in base but that is a whole another ball of wax.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Actually, we are all wrong here.

I remember very clearly a situation where I had 1 minute of duty in my 6th zulu day and that forced a 24/7 break on the road in the hotel. So... at least as far as UPS is concerned... your unequivocal statement of certainty is... well... you know... WRONG.

UPS goes by zulu days. You cannot touch any part of the 7th zulu day without having a 24 hr break. Many of our pairings contain a positioning or depositioning 24/7 break for legality. Most pax trips pay on block (vs most on rig at UPS) so the 24/7 question is seldom encountered, except possibly for reserves.

BBB

 

[SplitBar]

I remember very clearly a situation where I had 1 minute of duty in my 6th zulu day and that forced a 24/7 break on the road in the hotel. So... at least as far as UPS is concerned... your unequivocal statement of certainty is... well... you know... WRONG.

UPS goes by zulu days. You cannot touch any part of the 7th zulu day without having a 24 hr break. Many of our pairings contain a positioning or depositioning 24/7 break for legality. Most pax trips pay on block (vs most on rig at UPS) so the 24/7 question is seldom encountered, except possibly for reserves.

BBB

Like MaxBlast said, Contractual stuff is an entirely different ball of wax. We are talking FAR legal here.

 

[Ty Webb]

Pretty sad that on a "Majors" board this subject is even coming up. Who the hell works 6 days under any circumstances, let alone 7?

 

[maxblast72]

What do you have against people overextending themselves and then having to work hard to find a way of paying for it all? Multiple houses, multiple ex-wives, multiple cars, Americans want it all.

Don't we want Americans to keep overextending themselves to keep this economy going (and feeling like they need to travel every month)?

 

[Green]

you don't need multiple houses to go broke as an airline pilot. just try and buy a decent house that doesn't happen to be in bumf#kc middle of nowhere and you're broke. I hate to break it to you but 100k isn't what it used to be and the majority of airline pilots working under 85 hours a month don't top that figure by much.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Pretty sad that on a "Majors" board this subject is even coming up. Who the hell works 6 days under any circumstances, let alone 7?

Uh.....fractionals. Every other week.

 

[CatfishVT9]

Pretty sad that on a "Majors" board this subject is even coming up. Who the hell works 6 days under any circumstances, let alone 7?

Reserves. We're taking one for the team to keep Ty on the line.:beer:

You've become one of those senior out of touch old Captains.

 

[Ty Webb]

Reserves. We're taking one for the team to keep Ty on the line.:beer:

You've become one of those senior out of touch old Captains.

What gave it away? Was it calling for the checklist while the FO was in the middle of the W&B?

What? Whaddaya mean FO's don't do W&B anymore? :erm:

They do on MY plane! :smash:

Aaaargh! Where's the Stew with my prune juice?

Heh-heh.

Actually, I think the Reserve pilots should be the highest paid, since it's the s#!ttiest schedule.

Take the day off . . . . tell 'em Ty said it was OK.

 

[Ty Webb]

Uh.....fractionals. Every other week.

And that, sir, is the reason my happy ass sits on a Boeing seat cushion.

Three days is plenty. By day four, I'm out of underwear, and ready to go home. :laugh:

 

[Networ-King]

And that, sir, is the reason my happy ass sits on a Boeing seat cushion.

Three days is plenty. By day four, I'm out of underwear, and ready to go home. :laugh:

Ha....

Thats funny..... cause I sit my happy arse in a Boeing as well and have a 7 on 7 off schedule, however unlike the fractionals, I went to work 4 days in the last 30 days. Keep your 4 on 3 off schedule and enjoy it. Remember Ty, not all of us have to like the same thing or want the same thing ....eeehhh?

And you wouldn't be out of underwear on the 4th day if you just went commando :laugh:.

As for the 24/7? UPS is different and its contractual as per ZULU dates which is more conservative then the FARs..... The FARs do not specify calender day like someone said above... its 24 hours off in a 7 day period. Good luck trying to convince your scheduling department of your problem, Im sure they'll spin it their own little way.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Pretty sad that on a "Majors" board this subject is even coming up. Who the hell works 6 days under any circumstances, let alone 7?

Ty,
Don't knock it until you try it.

I don't know if you commute or not but I do. I can tell you as a former pax guy at UAL, commuting to a 2-4 day trip and then going home for a couple of days blows compared to "week on, week off".

Willingly doing 4-5 round trip commutes in a month would make me want to hang myself. I do 2 commutes a month max and it is a beautiful thing. The 1 in 7 thing also works in your favor if you are sitting reserve. Unless you get assigned a trip w/ a 24 hour layover, you know you'll get an extra day off somewhere in the week. Many times it's the last day so you get to go home a day early.
:beer:

 

[gutshotdraw]

And that, sir, is the reason my happy ass sits on a Boeing seat cushion.

Three days is plenty. By day four, I'm out of underwear, and ready to go home. :laugh:

Enjoy that Boeing Ty. This week, my very joyful hind end flew exactly 7 legs and was happily seated on a stool in a winery's tasting room sampling the local product for two of my seven days. Next week, it's a business class seat across the pond on a Whale, two whole passenger legs, another business class seat, and then THREE WEEKS off on vacation. I learned how to pack the extra underwear...:beer:

 

[DrewBlows]

I stand corrected then. Come to think of it the specific instance I was thinking of I started reserve at 0001 on day one, so in my situation I couldn't go into the seventh day.

I'm too lazy to look the regulation up so I'll take Split's word on it.

 

[Deadalus]

A little help.....

Flying 6 days in a row with no 24 hour period off. Scheduled to end at 2330 on the sixth day.

If you are late, knowing that your last leg will get you back after midnight are you legal?

Thanks in advance.

This is the voice of your future self. Get out of aviation and enjoy life. Life's way too short to be a willing slave.

 

[regionalcap]

Pretty sad that on a "Majors" board this subject is even coming up. Who the hell works 6 days under any circumstances, let alone 7?

The international guys do it all the time. I agree with you that 4 days on is plenty.

 

[vprMatrix]

Actually, we are all wrong here. It would depend on what time you started duty on day 1 of your six day trip. You need the 24 hour rest in a 7 day span but it doesn't specify "calendar days". You have (6 x 24) hours to finish up your trip so add 144 hours to your report time to figure out what time past 11:30pm you can be on duty until. If the trip started at noon on day 1, you could stay on duty well past your scheduled end time to finish up. Of course you would have to take into account your daily duty limit also.

Actually you were right the first time and everyone else is wrong. :bomb:

24 in 7 (FAR 121.471(d) is considered a Flight Time Limitation and therefor Legal to Start - Legal to Finish (FAR 121.471(g) applies. If fact 121.471(g) applies to all of FAR 121.471 except for Compensatory Rest and since the Whitlow ruling, the look back rest rule. Also, for clarification the 7 days are calender (midnight to midnight) days the 24 hours are any 24 hours during the 7 calender days.


This of course doesn't supersede anyone's contract or the fact that you may be fatigued.


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/1991/J.Johnson.rtf[/FONT]

 

[b82rez]

Thanks for the link. Exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Networ-King]

Actually you were right the first time and everyone else is wrong. :bomb:

24 in 7 (FAR 121.471(d) is considered a Flight Time Limitation and therefor Legal to Start - Legal to Finish (FAR 121.471(g) applies. If fact 121.471(g) applies to all of FAR 121.471 except for Compensatory Rest and since the Whitlow ruling, the look back rest rule. Also, for clarification the 7 days are calender (midnight to midnight) days the 24 hours are any 24 hours during the 7 calender days.


This of course doesn't supersede anyone's contract or the fact that you may be fatigued.


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/1991/J.Johnson.rtf[/FONT]

Thats weird.....

Heres 121.471............

(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed --

(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;

(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;

(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following:

(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.

(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time.

(3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.

(c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions:

(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.

​

(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.

(3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.

(4) No certificate holder may assign, nor may any flight crewmember perform any flight time with the certificate holder unless the flight crewmember has had at least the minimum rest required under this paragraph.

(d) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days.

(e) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may assign any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept assignment to any duty with the air carrier during any required rest period.

(f) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.

(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.


Now...... I could be wrong, but interpreting the FAR's, to this day, has not been perfected. Thats why POI's see the FAR's totally different to this day..... either way, good luck......

Oh and by the way.... you're link also says 7 consecutive days, not calender days........
​

 

[vprMatrix]

Thats weird.....

Now...... I could be wrong, but interpreting the FAR's, to this day, has not been perfected. Thats why POI's see the FAR's totally different to this day..... either way, good luck......

Oh and by the way.... you're link also says 7 consecutive days, not calender days........
​

This letter was not written by a POI and is consistent with other interpretations and rulings that the FAA has issued.

As for a "Day," it is what it is. 7 "24-hour" periods would most likely be 8 days and is not what the FAR says. It also further distinguishes that you don't need 1 day off just "any" 24 hours. ALPA also agrees with this definition of a day and it is spelled out in the "ALPA Guide to Flight Time Limitations" hand book.

Pretty weird.

 

[rickair7777]

I think the issue here is how exactly to interpret "7 days"...

Conservative Interpretation: Calendar days.

Liberal Interp: 24-hour periods.

Rick's Interp: Calendar Days. If they didn't mean calendar days, they would have specified 144 hours max. "Day" means midnight-to-midnight, otherwsie it's not a "day", but a 24-hour period.

Also, I think the precedent is set in all the other FAR's: 90 days landing currency, etc.

 

[Networ-King]

This letter was not written by a POI and is consistent with other interpretations and rulings that the FAA has issued.

As for a "Day," it is what it is. 7 "24-hour" periods would most likely be 8 days and is not what the FAR says. It also further distinguishes that you don't need 1 day off just "any" 24 hours. ALPA also agrees with this definition of a day and it is spelled out in the "ALPA Guide to Flight Time Limitations" hand book.

Pretty weird.

Dude....

Am I missing something here or are we saying the same damn thing? Re-read my post.... I never said it was a letter for one OR that a POI wrote it. That is FAR 121.471.... and it states 7 Consecutive days and not Calender days.... there is a difference. And to be honest with you.... I really couldn't give a f&^K what alpa has to say about anything.

 

[Fox-Tree]

And to be honest with you.... I really couldn't give a f&^K what alpa has to say about anything.

I'm wichoo brudda - LMAO!! Priceless.

 

[vprMatrix]

Dude....

Am I missing something here or are we saying the same damn thing? Re-read my post.... I never said it was a letter for one OR that a POI wrote it. That is FAR 121.471.... and it states 7 Consecutive days and not Calender days.... there is a difference. And to be honest with you.... I really couldn't give a f&^K what alpa has to say about anything.

Yea. I posted a letter from the FAA's Regulations and Enforcement Division representing the interpretation of 121.471(d) you then posted FAR 121.471 in its entirety and said (I could be wrong, but interpreting the FAR's, to this day, has not been perfected. Thats why POI's see the FAR's totally different to this day..... either way, good luck......) If you didn't mean to imply that the FAA's interpretation, which has been in effect for 16 years, was subject to change at whim then I misunderstood your post.

And since you love ALPA so much try this link for the FAA's idea of a day.

The whole point of this thread was to answer a legitimate question. I have provided facts you have interjected opinion. Feel free to use which ever you like if/when it actual matters.

This ain't rocket science.

:beer: