229 Delta Pilots to Retire

[bafanguy]

Sounds to me like a contract violation that would surely ruffle feathers. That is if the MEC does not sell out the group as a whole to keep some dues coming in from the upper seniority. Has the term "scab" been floated about at all ?

P3,

The post retirement provision was negotiated by ALPA...no "contract violation" involved. "Scab" ????????? If you don't know what you're talking about, perhaps you shouldn't be talking.

SCAB ?!?!?!?!

 

[RS6]

Those Are 229 Very Smart Pilots!!!!!

 

[Dangerkitty]

How do the masses feel about this ? Sounds to me like a contract violation that would surely ruffle feathers. That is if the MEC does not sell out the group as a whole to keep some dues coming in from the upper seniority. Has the term "scab" been floated about at all ? Just curious. I am sure there are several DAL pilots that would be willing to take an upgrade or even more furloughees that would like to come back to work ?

The furloughees at UAL were given a pittence portion of the stock reallocation plan once UAL emerges from BK. Lets see, give them 5% to pacify them and 95% to the remaining group who did not have to give up their jobs. 100% pay cut for the furloughees. Just don't get the "take care of our own, and get what I can for myself" attitude so many pilots have. Seniority rules !!! No Really.

All your diatribe can be summarized in three words, "You're a moron."

Try educating yourself about what is going on with the Delta Pilots before you make yourself look like an idiot.

P.S. You need to learn what the term SCAB refers to because you obviously don't get it.

 

[TonyC]

How do the masses feel about this ? Sounds to me like a contract violation ...

You should pay more attention. Where were you when we debating the PRP TA? It passed. It's part of the PWA, now.


It saved the day, and it means furloughs will be recalled more quickly. Just ask General Lee!

 

[General Lee]

Tony C. is sorta correct. It did save the day initially, which means it stopped a Chap 11 filing and that could have resulted in further plane parking. The main deal here is that we wanted to NOT go through what United and USAir pilots have gone through. We voted in that TA (#45) and it made sure that we wouldn't have to park planes due to lack of staff, and it also states that as long as we have PRPs, there will be no further furloughs. Had we not signed and lost 500 Captains in one month, we would have had to park every widebody, and many of those retiring would have been line check airman and sim instructors. It would have been a cluster fukc. Instead, those PRPs will eventually be gone, and the line check guys that stayed during this last retirement wave 2 days ago (16 guys I believe) will stay and help train the replacements. That is a fact, and they will all be gone eventually---because the IRS is watching---and they don't like people staying too long after receiving their lump sums.......


To say that we would have been better off not voting in this TA and watching Delta crumble is absolutely wrong---it would have made things a lot worse. It would not have brought the furloughs back any faster, and probably would have resulted in many more. Now, we have a chance to get better, and a lot of guys have retired anyways---just not all at once with no back up. Oil prices have come down a tad, and we have a new credit line that will help pay off short term bills. That's better than being in court paying lawyers millions of $$$$$.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TonyC]

We voted in that TA (#45) ... and it also states that as long as we have PRPs, there will be no further furloughs.

Ummmm General? Do you want to correct that?

 

[General Lee]

Tony C,


That is a correct statement. Sure, there could be a Chap 11 and that could change that, but as I keep telling you Tony, the PRPs cannot stay for an extended amount of time due to IRS oversight. I think you need to read the agreement. It stated NO FURTHER FURLOUGHS WHILE PRPs are employed. They all have to be gone by December 31st, 2005. If you think differently, then please provide proof.


Bye Bye--General Lee


PS: Tony, in the actual TA (or agreement) in Section 11, under "Representation, Scope, Seniority, Bidding, Training, and Furlough" and under letter G---it states "No pilot will be placed on furlough during the employment of post-retirement pilots."


Where do you get your "Cocky Know it all" attitude?

 

[TonyC]

... as I keep telling you Tony, the PRPs cannot stay for an extended amount of time due to IRS oversight. I

Yeah, yeah, I know, I knooooow. You seem to have developed some kind of unnatural affection for the IRS, in fact.


There is a significant difference between "as long as we have PRPs, there will be no further furloughs" and "if we declare bankruptcy, the first thing we'll toss out is the no furlough clause." THAT's what is says.

(Don't you remember, you already HAD a "No Furlough" clause - - you didn't need a TA to get that!)

 

[General Lee]

I am sooo glad you KNOW we will go Chap 11. That is probably why they awarded 330,000 stock options to two of the top VPs---so that could all go down in flames. You like to think you know everything, and you probably KNEW we were going to go into bankruptcy, but yet again it didn't happen. Will it happen in the future? I don't really know. You seem to know.

Listen to this Tony-----HAD WE GONE INTO CHAP 11, THE NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOSSED FIRST. FACT. WITHOUT THE TA, WE WOULD HAVE FILED CHAP 11. FACT. WHICH OF THESE TWO FACTS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? The TA stopped an immediate Chap 11 filing, we survived another huge retirement chunk, our stock has climbed from the $2 mark, gas prices have gone down, and we have new financing. Not bad and hopefully it will get better. You are not a psychic, are you? Neither am I. And, I was told that fact about the IRS by an MEC member familiar with the negotiations.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[TonyC]

PS: Tony, in the actual TA (or agreement) in Section 11, under "Representation, Scope, Seniority, Bidding, Training, and Furlough" and under letter G---it states "No pilot will be placed on furlough during the employment of post-retirement pilots."


Where do you get your "Cocky Know it all" attitude?

Oops - - I was responding while you were editing. OK, you're right. It does say there will be no more furloughs. (Which in itself is confusing since your PWA already had a "No Furlough" provision.) The trouble is, that's not all the LOA says. Paragraph G is cited as the SOLE provision of the Agreement from which the Company will seek relief in a bankruptcy. In other words, if it declares bankruptcy, it plans to not honor the no-furlough provision. That's a fairly significant aspect, in my opinion.

Speaking of opinion, I do realize it's just that, and no more. I apologize if I came across as "cocky know it all." Criticism taken - - I'll try to do better.


My interest in your Company is not directly personal, but it's close. I have close relatives that derive their livelihood from your PWA. I wish you well.

 

[General Lee]

Tony C,


Sorry if I got mad, as I am an advocate of the furloughs, even though Dave Griffin doesn't think so. I know plenty of our furloughs, and it pains me too.


If we were to file Chap 11, then I believe even more pilots would leave as soon as possible (1000 were eligble, and about 330 have left since Nov 1st). I would think another 400 or so would leave, and that could mitigate some new furloughs. It's all about that lump sum pension, and many have some in there but not as much as they would like. Yet, they would probably take it versus have it evaporate and leaving them with 4-6 years left of work without being able to make it up.

Things are hopefully starting to get better, and we can only hope that we don't file Chap 11---and today looks a lot better than a few weeks ago.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TonyC]

I am sooo glad you KNOW we will go Chap 11. That is probably why they awarded 330,000 stock options to two of the top VPs---so that could all go down in flames. You like to think you know everything, and you probably KNEW we were going to go into bankruptcy, but yet again it didn't happen. Will it happen in the future? I don't really know. You seem to know.

Listen to this Tony-----HAD WE GONE INTO CHAP 11, THE NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOSSED FIRST. FACT. WITHOUT THE TA, WE WOULD HAVE FILED CHAP 11. FACT. WHICH OF THESE TWO FACTS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? The TA stopped an immediate Chap 11 filing, we survived another huge retirement chunk, our stock has climbed from the $2 mark, gas prices have gone down, and we have new financing. Not bad and hopefully it will get better. You are not a psychic, are you? Neither am I. And, I was told that fact about the IRS by an MEC member familiar with the negotiations.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Well, it seems we're missing each other here. You were answering my post as I was answering yours from before.


Hmmm... you're obviously peeved at me, and will no doubt read my apology as soon as you've posted this one.... this is worse than phone tag.


I have no idea if you'll ever go into Chapter 11 or how close you have ever been. I suspect none of us really know that, do we?

I do know that had Delta declared Chapter 11, the PWA would have remained in full effect until a judge had a say about it, and I highly doubt that it would have been just one No Furlough clause while the remainder stood in effect. Just my opinion, mind you.

I also know that HAD Delta declared Chapter 11, or even it still does (it looks less likely, and I'm thrilled) the Company WILL seek relief from the No Furlough provision, and can do so without even bothering the rest of the PWA. They have license to do so with the LOA.

Hopefully it will all be a moot issue as Delta will continue to thrive and grow. (I wasn't aware that celebrations had already begun - - 330,000 stock options - - wow)


Again - - sorry to ruffle your feathers. G'night.

 

[TonyC]

Sorry if I got mad, as I am an advocate of the furloughs, even though Dave Griffin doesn't think so. I know plenty of our furloughs, and it pains me too.

I think we just disagree about what is best for the furloughs. Honest, intelligent people can disagree, right?


(As long as I'm right and you're wrong! j/k)

 

[General Lee]

Tony C,


I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers either. I am very aware of the No Furlough clause and how well it didn't work after 9-11, and I thought voting no on the TA would have added more through a judge. It was that simple, and the TA also forced out a lot of senior guys that have enjoyed the last three years due to higher pay. It gave them a date to leave or risk their lump sums. That allowed many to leave but some to stay to help train the others. I thought that was a win-win.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[spinproof]

Well it's been fun listning to you two "polish each other's throttle" but now it's time for you two to have your milk and cookies and get to bed ! The mutual admiration society is closed for the day!

Please someone jump in before they start their bomb run on me!

 

[sleepy]

General,

Maybe you can come up with something that will get 229 of your mean old hag FA's to retire.

 

[H2OK9]

I'm thinking, if they retire then come back as contract pilots.....aren't they a bunch of scab mfers?

 

[Ted Striker]

I'm thinking, if they retire then come back as contract pilots.....aren't they a bunch of scab mfers?

You'd better check your definition of a scab pal. While not necessarily desirable for them to come back as contract pilots, they did not cross any kind of picket line-therefore no scab. SCAB is a strong word, be careful how you use it. There are plenty out there that are deserving, but this is not the case.

 

[H2OK9]

oh soft spot? relax! scab scab scab! You can't say scab on an aircraft! it is what it is. They're screwing their fellow pilots!

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

"they're" fellow pilots.

geez....