2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)

[SIG600]

but if we don't have the respect of the folks that pay our fuel bill then we will never be heard, just shunned.

As long as those same folks that pay the bill understand that every time an event has to be knocked off because of MOA intrusion... that fuel bill goes up. Not only that, but the loss of man hours spent planning, maintaining, operating jets. If said MOA intrusion results in a mid-air... you can figure out the cost.

How about taking the conservative/responsible approach as a professional aviator (a trait I question by a few here), and make a phone call prior to entering? Or call the controlling agency airborn if you're incapable of following FAR's and doing all appropriate pre-flight planning. Or even go around.

 

[cjdriver]

Some stupid, arrogant words by one can affect the opinion of many and I care for a number of reasons:

1. I want civilian pilots to listlen when we have something important to say and respect our opinion when it comes to some points of aircraft operation.

2. I don't want new guys to get sh!t on for the actions of those that came before.

3. I want military members that come back embraced by flags and carried by six to be respected and mourned properly.

4. I don't want someone civilian with Cesena and a beef to do something stupid around a MOA or my wingman.

5. I want folks to attend airshows and buy squadron gidunk so we can get better booze for the grog.:beer:

We work for all civilians on this board and thus need to take the higher ground. We have very valid points on many flying issues, but if we don't have the respect of the folks that pay our fuel bill then we will never be heard, just shunned.

When I see a post like this it restores my faith that the people we hire to operate our war machines have the maturity and judgement to do the right thing, always. Turning on a civilian corporate jet is not an example of that. I don't think a thinking man would categorize an entire pilot group based on the words or actions of a few.
By the way, we've wasted billions on this chicken sh!t op in Iraq, still without getting the sob that killed our neighbors. Why would I give a rat's a$$ if we spend a few more thousand so I can get through a MOA.

 

[McGillicutty]

When I see a post like this it restores my faith that the people we hire to operate our war machines have the maturity and judgement to do the right thing, always. Turning on a civilian corporate jet is not an example of that. I don't think a thinking man would categorize an entire pilot group based on the words or actions of a few.
By the way, we've wasted billions on this chicken sh!t op in Iraq, still without getting the sob that killed our neighbors. Why would I give a rat's a$$ if we spend a few more thousand so I can get through a MOA.

Exactly. I'm certainly not going to think all Astra captains are morons just because one compared the legitimacy of the war in Iraq to flying through MOAs.

 

[SIG600]

Why would I give a rat's a$$ if we spend a few more thousand so I can get through a MOA.

Because when I have to use my weekend, locked in the vault mission planning (and not at home or with family when I already work 12 hours a day during the week), and I invest 7-8 or more hours doing it, then my hop gets canx'd because you're trolling through the MOA... it makes me WANT to shoot your ass down! I'm not exagerating either. It's 1700 on a Friday, I'm still stuck at work, and I'll be here this weekend planning for a flight on Monday which in all reality will be a .8. If you come beboppoing through the MOA... I may just trip an RA and say I never saw you (that's sarcasm for you types with no sense of humor).

Plus being a "CRJ driver" I suspect you're on an IFR flight plan 99% of the time, and thus non of this applies because even ATC has the smarts to not send traffic through.

 

[tankerswede]

Whaaa....whaaa..sob, sob..that civillian made me fly at 20k...sob...sob...instead of my planned 9k...sob...sob...I hate them all...sob...sob...

Are all of the officers in your unit such crybabies?

And the difference between this and "whaaa...whaaa..sob, sob..that F-16 made my TCAS give an RA...sob...sob...I had to declare an emergency to fly into Class A airspace VFR...sob...sob...I want to file a complaint...sob...sob..." is what?

I have my own idea of what the answer is - the question is rhetorical.

I got floors put under me many times in the MOA while some VFR traffic went through and ATC built the Bozo Bubble around them. I was doing TP stalls and slow flight with primary students, not BFM, so it wasn't as high an impact (pardon the pun) on us as the fighter community but it still affected training. The part that I to this day cannot understand is why about half the time they wouldn't talk to ATC for flight following. ATC will flight follow them through the MOA - they can't stop them. At least give yourself some additional SA and have the radar controller on the same page.

I realize this is apples (UPT) to oranges (F-16 RTU) but it's all produce.

Legal does not equal smart.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Aopa

Well, since I'm a card carrying AOPA member (since 1985), a big fan of GA, a military pilot, and above all, an advocate for smart flying, I wanted to see what AOPA's Air Safety Foundation said about MOAs.

This is what I found:

...this does not prevent pilots flying under visual flight rules from traveling through MOAs. Prudent pilots will contact any flight service station within 100 miles of a MOA to find out whether or not the airspace is active before they attempt to transit the area. It's also a good idea to contact the controlling agency (either an approach control or en route center) and request advisories before entering a MOA. Better yet, it's a good idea for VFR pilots to avoid active MOAs altogether when possible unless you can be certain that the area is inactive. (emphasis mine)

They give lots of handy tools so you can follow their advice and avoid 'hot' MOAs. You can check the quasi-real time status of Special-Use-Airspace at: http://www.aopa.org/members/airports/sua.cfm

Also, the military creaded a site so you can look at your route of flight and see what SUA, low level routes you're going to come close to. It will also show you MACs and NMACs in the vicinity. The site is http://seeandavoid.org

Just be smart, and avoid hot MOAs... my $.02

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because when I have to use my weekend, locked in the vault mission planning (and not at home or with family when I already work 12 hours a day during the week), and I invest 7-8 or more hours doing it, then my hop gets canx'd because you're trolling through the MOA... it makes me WANT to shoot your ass down!

Your attitude sir, is unprofessional.... you should know that MOA's are joint use airspace and your mission could be interupted or cancelled b/c of it. If your superiors didn't want you getting interupted then they would have you fly elseware...

Your issue is with the gov't. not the individual civilians

As a professional you should be mentally prepared for such interuptions and deal with it, with coolness... IOW professionalism... sure it might not be "right" or fair... but grandpa said life was never fair...

The enitre aviation industry didn't get up in the morning to make my or your day perfect...

I'm not exagerating either. It's 1700 on a Friday, I'm still stuck at work, and I'll be here this weekend planning for a flight on Monday which in all reality will be a .8. If you come beboppoing through the MOA... I may just trip an RA and say I never saw you (that's sarcasm for you types with no sense of humor).

There have been many times that I didn't make it home to my family for any given reason. I understand this and accept it as part of the job. If you don't like your job anymore.. then find another.. I know from expereince that the MIL puts the MIL first and family second...

Plus being a "CRJ driver" I suspect you're on an IFR flight plan 99% of the time, and thus non of this applies because even ATC has the smarts to not send traffic through.

That is right... I don't want to be flying along at FL190 or FL200 and have to respond to an RA because a civilian aircraft flying VFR is suddenly blasting through Class A because some unprofessional F-16 pilot has lost his cool and is no longer in control of his jet.... you guys give new meaning to the term air rage....


Get it Slick?

 

[cjdriver]

Because when I have to use my weekend, locked in the vault mission planning (and not at home or with family when I already work 12 hours a day during the week), and I invest 7-8 or more hours doing it, then my hop gets canx'd because you're trolling through the MOA... it makes me WANT to shoot your ass down! I'm not exagerating either. It's 1700 on a Friday, I'm still stuck at work, and I'll be here this weekend planning for a flight on Monday which in all reality will be a .8. If you come beboppoing through the MOA... I may just trip an RA and say I never saw you (that's sarcasm for you types with no sense of humor).

Plus being a "CRJ driver" I suspect you're on an IFR flight plan 99% of the time, and thus non of this applies because even ATC has the smarts to not send traffic through.

Gotta say, this made me chuckle for some reason. You do have a sense of humor, even if you weren't kidding about shooting me down. The rant on the war thing is really my pent up resentment that we haven't extracted revenge for 9/11. It really pisses me off. If you know where Bin Laden is and can loan me your armed F/A, I'll step up.

 

[Mamma]

Exactly. I'm certainly not going to think all Astra captains are morons just because one compared the legitimacy of the war in Iraq to flying through MOAs.

My point has been made. Well done McGillicutty.

 

[Bjammin]

When I see a post like this it restores my faith that the people we hire to operate our war machines have the maturity and judgement to do the right thing, always. Turning on a civilian corporate jet is not an example of that. I don't think a thinking man would categorize an entire pilot group based on the words or actions of a few.
By the way, we've wasted billions on this chicken sh!t op in Iraq, still without getting the sob that killed our neighbors. Why would I give a rat's a$$ if we spend a few more thousand so I can get through a MOA.

Thanks for that. I try my best to act in a manner that is representitive of the position that has been honored to me.

Now, all I ask is you let me do my job or training future Naval Aviaitors safely. I can't do that without you acting in the professional manner that is required from you as a civilian pilot.

In my EXPERT opinion (14 year Naval pilot and 9 year advanced tac. jet flight instructor) and that of every other military aviator on this board and AOPA is that going through an active MOA is not safe without contact with the controlling agency. I don't care that much about gas or wasting time. Those things are lousy to lose for no other reason then someones lazyness, but it's my flight's and your safety that I'm most concered with.

Please, pick up the phone and call first. If there is a big excersize going on, stay out. If no one is there then you should have a nice, warm fuzzy about flying through.

BTW, we both have opinions about the war. Don't let people that have nothing to do with that suffer because of your disheartment.