2 New DL routes from ATL that Airtran won't do

[Ty Webb]

The problem is that the "bottom segment" of the market is now about 95% of all air passengers.

They are because Delta makes that possible for them, by matching our rates (which they can't make money on, regardless of pay cuts).

If they simply charged fares they could make money at, then only 20% of the people would be the bottom segment (or whatever the market would stabilize at).

Not everyone shops at Walmart, when given a choice. I choose to avoid the traffic, the stadium-lot parking, (not to mention the blue eyeshadow-wearing, gum-popping, super-sized trailer trash in their tube tops smacking their kids in the toy aisles) and patronize local merchants, even though it costs a little more. Maybe I can even find an item that is made in the USA . . . . maybe, just maybe.

 

[fletch717]

Ty, so you have seen my wife. Dammit I told her we can't afford toys from walmart, I always say go to goodwill. Just like I always have to remind her that there are TWO sides to a diaper, oh well I guess somebody's got a beatin comming. Be sure to watch cops in 6 months my episode should be on.

 

[Ty Webb]

You're a Captain now . . . . you can buy toys at Walmart!

Then again, being a cheap pilot, you could just pick up ones you find in people's yards, you know, on your way to work. . . . . Fair game . . . . kind of like a newspaper in a hotel hallway.

 

[skykid]

GL, I think you would do well to quit mentioning the 2.3 billion in cuts like you do in every post. You even did it in back to back posts on this thread,as if you forgot you just wrote that. I think you are going to find yourself in about a year wondering where those savings went.

 

[fletch717]

GL, I think you would do well to quit mentioning the 2.3 billion in cuts like you do in every post. You even did it in back to back posts on this thread,as if you forgot you just wrote that. I think you are going to find yourself in about a year wondering where those savings went.

Simplifares and Non-Revs to RIO

 

[cl65capt]

Dont forget those spiffy new interiors on the MD88's and those even spiffier new FA uniforms.

 

[General Lee]

General Lee,

Let me tell you something about that airline you work for. Traveled on them just yesterday from SLC to ......, and could not believe the way the trip went. I'll set the scene for you. OAT at SLC about 40F, with nice sunny weather. Most of the folks were dressed warmly as you might expect. Loaded 128 pax into the back of a 737-300 which BTW has cattle car seating that is unmatched anywhere in the US. Did not start the APU until approx 4 minutes prior to pushback in spite of numerous complaints from the pax. WTF, if your going to sell tickets on this airline at least give a little comfort to the experience. Again they did not start the APU after shutdown so all the passengers, especially those in the back got to experience the sauna a second time over. I know you are trying to save fuel, but what ever happened to Safety, Comfort, Schedule? I cannot imagine your airline being in business another year or more. Maybe by that time the US taxpayer will have had enough of this airline BK sh#t and cut your life lines quickly.
Also really enjoyed talking to the Hindu down in lower India about my reservations. I might not like the boarding process at SWA, but at least they have a bonafied res system that have real people that answer your questions.

I won't even bother you with the lousy seating pitch in the 737-300. Can't even open a newspaper. The overhead lights are so dim because of the dirt and filth on the lenses that it's like reading in a closet. The funny thing is that the Captain is standing there in the doorway as the folks deplane with thank you's when in fact nothing he could possibly say could make up for the crappy experience beyond his control other than the APU issue. I guess that the temp in the cockpit was okay for him at least. Clueless to say the least.

So, you didn't say anything? Hmmmm. And, you have never ever had a bad flight of your own? It never happens where you fly. Riiiiight. And, every flight at Delta is just like the one you described. Riiiight. And, every airplane we own is exactly like the SLC 737-300s. Riiight. Man, you really convinced me that we $UCK. Ok......... I am sure some of our flights aren't great each day, unlike all of the Airtran flights......


Next time, say something to someone if you are uncomfortable. You look stupid for not saying anything. I would have. Hit the stew call button next time.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You clearly haven't seen DL's First Class meals lately. Most of them are pretty bad. Even DL management has admitted that the food quality is poor.

DL's Rio service is now in jeopardy since DL has told the DOT they don't have the aircraft available for a June 1st start. They want to delay the start until October. United is, of course, protesting this and making other claims against DL.

The problem for DL is that even if Rio is profitable (which is no guarantee...Rio is primarily a leisure market), those profits won't offset the losses that will now be occuring in CLT. DL flies far more people out of CLT, than they ever will to Rio.

I eat first class meals (transcons) every once and a while, and I think they are good. Sorry we don't have "Four Seasons" style food available for everyone.

As far as the Rio service being in jeopardy, I have been told that they will probably use a domestic 767-300ER initially, and then reconfigure another one with the Business Elite seats. The planes flying down there are inefficient in the scheduling, since they usually get down there in the morning, and then leave late that night. Our people are looking into that.

As far as comparing loads from Rio and loads from CLT, it is easy to understand that DL does fly more people out of CLT per day, since there are more flights and more than just 202 seats (767ER South American capacity I believe). You got that straight. As far as Rio making money, well, I don't think our people would choose to fly into an unprofitable INTL destination. Do you? Do you know that for a fact? Are you knowledgeable of the actual data? We dropped Buenos Aires a few years ago because their economy went way south, but we just re-started it and it is doing very well, since things are cheaper down there. There are businessmen who travel from the US to Brasil and vice versa that have business down there, and they probably would pay a lot for a nice ride down there. Also, our frequent flyer members would probably like to go to Rio after flying more throughout the rest of the world. And, cargo will do very well.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Simplifares and Non-Revs to RIO

See, you really don't know what you are talking about. Simplifares are for domestic travel only. Our INTL flying is very successful, and that is why we continue to add to it. But, I would like to nonrev to Rio.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

They are because Delta makes that possible for them, by matching our rates (which they can't make money on, regardless of pay cuts).

If they simply charged fares they could make money at, then only 20% of the people would be the bottom segment (or whatever the market would stabilize at).

Not everyone shops at Walmart, when given a choice. I choose to avoid the traffic, the stadium-lot parking, (not to mention the blue eyeshadow-wearing, gum-popping, super-sized trailer trash in their tube tops smacking their kids in the toy aisles) and patronize local merchants, even though it costs a little more. Maybe I can even find an item that is made in the USA . . . . maybe, just maybe.

Ty,

Come on man, we have restructured to be able to afford those fares. We have made huge changes, and transformed a lot of what we do. We aren't going to give up on a particular part of the population, and we have different ways of keeping those people happy, like using Song on some high density routes with LCC competition like Jetblue. On the other hand, we still have a very lucrative INTL segment that we don't have to charge super low fares. We also do well with our RJs, even though we may have too many right now. All of that will be addressed and their costs are also being looked at. We aren't laying around waiting to get slammed, we are actually making huge changes. That will not help Airtran. You can't get around that, we are getting back a lot of our lost business in ATL alone, and that affects you. We offer more to those customers, and now at your prices. How can that be good for you---we offer more at the same price, and the volume of those mid level paying passengers will make up for a few super high fare paying passengers that were angry at the price differential.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Spooky 1]

General,

Answer this question if you can? Exactly what is Delta's policy regarding the use of the APU prior to start and after landing? I know that it is written somewhere in your Ops so if it is in fact policy that you don't start it until four minutes prior to start, "so be it" to quote another great Delta leader. Just answer the question as I am sure it is in your FOM somewhere. As a matter of fact just quote your FOM if you care to.

Never been on Air Tran in my life so I can't respond to their operations. Come on General you know that there must be a written policy, that at least in this case puts economy ahead of comfort. Another great decision from the 4th floor I suppose. I really would like to see Delta suceed but these types of decisions are not working in your favor (or mine).

 

[Ty Webb]

General-

Whether or not your strategy will hurt us remains to be seen, but it hasn;t worked in the past, and I don;t believe it will work now.

You still can't make money at our prices. That is a net drain, and Delta has already squandered $6 Billion playing that losing game.

Meanwhile, AirTran is making money. That means we are paying down debt, buying newer, more efficient equipment, and hedging fuel. Our costs are going down, too, but it is because of incresed efficiency, not cutbacks.

In other words, you guys haven't made any money in four years, and you continue to sell "product" at prices that are less than your cost. While more sensible pricing will help, unless it covers the cost of providing the service, you guys will very likely end up in Chapt 11. Does Q3 work for you?

 

[IAHERJ]

Okay,

After 4 pages of this, can somebody please tell me who has the largest unit or should I wait until page 6 for the verdict?

IAHERJ

 

[cl65capt]

Okay,

After 4 pages of this, can somebody please tell me who has the largest unit or should I wait until page 6 for the verdict?

IAHERJ

That would be me, according to my wife her pinkie is six inches long.

 

[General Lee]

General,

Answer this question if you can? Exactly what is Delta's policy regarding the use of the APU prior to start and after landing? I know that it is written somewhere in your Ops so if it is in fact policy that you don't start it until four minutes prior to start, "so be it" to quote another great Delta leader. Just answer the question as I am sure it is in your FOM somewhere. As a matter of fact just quote your FOM if you care to.

Never been on Air Tran in my life so I can't respond to their operations. Come on General you know that there must be a written policy, that at least in this case puts economy ahead of comfort. Another great decision from the 4th floor I suppose. I really would like to see Delta suceed but these types of decisions are not working in your favor (or mine).

Spooky1,

We normally will turn it on 5 minutes prior to push, UNLESS we are told that it is uncomfortable. If I ever hear something from a stew, I ask the Captain (who always agrees) and then turn it on and get that air back there. We also have ground air at warmer stations, but this weird Winter weather sometimes throws a curve ball. Also, inbound to the gate after landing, in ATL especially, we ALWAYS turn on the APU because we want to shut off the engines immediately to conserve fuel, and then when ground power is plugged in, we transfer power and shut off the APU UNLESS it is warm, then we keep it on until everyone is off the plane. That is how we do it. If you were hot, why didn't you speak up? Any good Captain would take that as a hint and turn on the APU if it isn't on. Try that next time please, and welcome aboard.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General-

Whether or not your strategy will hurt us remains to be seen, but it hasn;t worked in the past, and I don;t believe it will work now.

You still can't make money at our prices. That is a net drain, and Delta has already squandered $6 Billion playing that losing game.

Meanwhile, AirTran is making money. That means we are paying down debt, buying newer, more efficient equipment, and hedging fuel. Our costs are going down, too, but it is because of incresed efficiency, not cutbacks.

In other words, you guys haven't made any money in four years, and you continue to sell "product" at prices that are less than your cost. While more sensible pricing will help, unless it covers the cost of providing the service, you guys will very likely end up in Chapt 11. Does Q3 work for you?

Ty,

First of all, Airtran doesn't fly to all of Delta's cities. You do fly to many large cities, and a few small ones, but overall you are the next biggest in ATL and we have to watch what you are doing. We go to plenty of cities that you do not, and we can charge whatever we want on those flights. As far as the same cities, our fares are now comparable to your walk up fares, and now we will fill our first class sections with actual paying passengers, instead on non-revs. When you say we have squandered $6 billion, a lot of that was our previous management's fault, not only Airtran. We bought back stock pre-9-11, we sold the fuel hedges, etc. You had nothing to do with any of that. As far as making money at your prices, that will remain to be seen. We expect a revenue increase in late 05 with possible profits in early 06. We have a lot of debt, and the only way to get out of it is to pay it off, and that is what we will eventually do, but it will take a while. Our people know this, and they are working on solutions, not sitting on their arses.

As far as your costs going down, that is not true. Your aircraft are getting older, and your employees are too--requiring higher pay each year over year. The legacy carriers have put a stop to that, and have imposed pay cuts and freezes that will make us competitive. We pilots (around 7100) gave up $1 billion a year for 5 years (7 probably), and that is huge from one group. Then, the other groups can have more pay cuts whenever because of the lack of unions or contracts. The DCI employees are getting squeezed right now. Things are being done, core changes are happening. You can't compare our airline now to what we were 2 years ago. Things will improve, and even Airtran is trying to find other avenues to compete, and soon you will have to face other LCCs more directly than what you are doing now. We will sustain our hubs and have Song do point to point, and you guys will have mini hubs and try the same, while Southwest goes everywhere. Our INTL flying will help the bottom line, and our RJs flying to small communities will make money too. We have a lot to do, but we are doing it, and that is why Joe L. feels the heat.


Q3 Chap 11 huh? Well, I doubt it, and so does Ray Neidl who just upgraded us last week. High gas prices don't help at all, but we have other means to get our cost down and add liquidity, and that is all being looked at by smarter people than you and me.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[skykid]

If you were hot, why didn't you speak up?

GL, maybe because he would rather spew venom and exaggerate on a subject he knows nothing about. Most pilots know there are plenty of situations where you have to be judicious on APU use. Example - I was jumpseating on a 737 where the crew was having problems with the APU shutting down, so they ran it as little as possible to limp it along to an overnite where it could be fixed.

 

[General Lee]

GL, maybe because he would rather spew venom and exaggerate on a subject he knows nothing about. Most pilots know there are plenty of situations where you have to be judicious on APU use. Example - I was jumpseating on a 737 where the crew was having problems with the APU shutting down, so they ran it as little as possible to limp it along to an overnite where it could be fixed.

You can't ask the stew to cool it off? Why not? Can you ask nicely? I would say "hey, it is a little warm back here, any chance you could relay that to the Captain?" I bet it would work. As far as crews limping along with a bad APU, I am sure that happens at every airline. I haven't seen that on my flights, but we do have APUs deferred occasionally, and if that occurs I always tell the ramp to make sure ground air is available and also tell the pax before we push back that it may be a little uncomfortable for a little while until we start an engine. I can only control what I do, not what others do.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[fletch717]

Ok I'll take a shot at educating you general. Our costs are going down and they continue to shrink. Because with the 737 we are flying more people longer stage lengths. This lowers our CASM across the board. We continue to recieve 73's this will affect our CASM in the future. Now the 717 and the 737 deals with boeing have deferred maintenance costs as far out as 20 years. In comparison Jetblue's CASM will increase with the arrival of the emb's (please leave this alone lowcur) This along with other things will keep us profitable in the future.

AirTran does'nt want to be Delta, but the belief that Delta is somehow so superior to airtran that passengers will return to Delta in record numbers well that is the same thinking that got you where you are today. Remember Delta had a 70% load factor all last year and lost 4 billion. You took a pay cut and are giving back 1 Billion. Congrats your 30% of the way to break even this year. We had a 70% load factor and made 12 million, not alot of money but we are growing 20% a year. After all if we only make 1 dollar a year for the next 20 years we will still be here.

 

[General Lee]

Ok I'll take a shot at educating you general. Our costs are going down and they continue to shrink. Because with the 737 we are flying more people longer stage lengths. This lowers our CASM across the board. We continue to recieve 73's this will affect our CASM in the future. Now the 717 and the 737 deals with boeing have deferred maintenance costs as far out as 20 years. In comparison Jetblue's CASM will increase with the arrival of the emb's (please leave this alone lowcur) This along with other things will keep us profitable in the future.

AirTran does'nt want to be Delta, but the belief that Delta is somehow so superior to airtran that passengers will return to Delta in record numbers well that is the same thinking that got you where you are today. Remember Delta had a 70% load factor all last year and lost 4 billion. You took a pay cut and are giving back 1 Billion. Congrats your 30% of the way to break even this year. We had a 70% load factor and made 12 million, not alot of money but we are growing 20% a year. After all if we only make 1 dollar a year for the next 20 years we will still be here.

You need work at "educating people" chief. First off a glaring error that you didn't catch---we all gave up $2.3 billion a year---not just $1 billion---so not 30%. Even if that was true, we have also cut out a lot of excess fat---like our unprofitable DFW hub. We then changed the way we do business at our hubs, doing quicker turns and so far we are doing well with our de-peaking hub operation. We turn the planes faster and added 81 flights a day to ATL alone, and that allows us more legs per day to try to create revenue. Our Simplfares program was initially created in CVG to attract our CVG passengers back, instead of driving to other cities close by and flying Airtran or others from Dayton etc. It was a huge success, and that spring boarded the plan into our current deal. That will affect Airtran, no doubt.

Your 737 CASM example is interesting. So, your 737s fly longer legs and lower the CASM and make you more money flying more people on longer legs. Well, have you ever noticed how many 767-300s we have at ATL each day? We have more domestic 767s than anyone else, and we fly the majority of people into and out of ATL each day---which is the busiest airport in the world when it comes to passenger numbers. So, if we get our costs down ($1 billion from pilots ALONE) and make our planes more efficient with turn times etc (we have done better than most people expected according to management and my own eyes watching our lack of taxi time compared with before) we should do well too, right? We fly huge 767s with a lot more seats than your 737s, and our CASM on those planes is VERY LOW. The reason our total CASM is high is because our RJs are lumped in with us. Our mainline CASM is a lot lower than yours, since we have larger planes flying farther distances than your 737s. While you have 1 daily 737 to SFO, we have 5 flights with 757s and 767s, which are full. After taking out the $2.3 billion a year in savings from pay and leases, and then making our operations more lean (DFW gone and de-peaking hubs to create efficiencies), we should do a lot better now. That isn't great news for you guys. How's that for a school lesson?

Bye Bye--General Lee