135 Pft

[jstyle13]

I have the opportunity to be picked up by a company that operates several lears. They pay around 30k a year. They will hire me (1000tt 125multi) but they want me to pft for the initial. Is this common in 135 or do most charter ops front the money for you. I was told they instituted pft b/c a lot of people were bailing on them after a year or two and it wasn't cost effective. Did you guys/gals have to pft or did the company take care of that? Any advice/ideas are welcome.

Thanks

jj

 

[Andy Neill]

If I were handed such a proposal and both the employer and I agreed that two years was a reasonable amount of time to recoup training investment, I would counter with this:

Reduce my monthly salary by 1/24th of the cost of initial. At the end of two years, pay that (the full cost of initial) to me as a retention performance bonus (with accrued interest?). How about it?

 

[English]

Andy, that is really great! I love the idea!

It's also an effective counterproposal. A friend of mine was in a similar situation about six months ago. He was a 1500 hour turboprop pilot given an opportunity to get typed in a small jet, with a substantial pay raise, to fly as PIC. The problem was the company though him to be a flight risk to the airlines (yeah right!). So, they wanted him to pay for the cost of the type, broken down into monthly payments. But no matter the ethical discussions he had with almost every pilot he knows, he accepted the proposal. He now kicks himself over the whole thing and is resentful the company made him do this. I wish I had read your idea months earlier and couldn't helped him out.

So, jstyle13, learn from other's mistakes...Andy has come up with a great compromise that is actually quite positive.

 

[aroundtheblock]

Although companies are having trouble collecting from a training contract, that is what my company uses. They send and pay for us at FSI, but we have to sign a 6 month contract.

 

[Airpiraterob]

yeah people are trying to retain pilots so they at least make their training costs worthwhile. options for them? well...

staright up PFT. you pay and then work. get nothing back xcept a paycheck

promisory note. you dont pay anything unless you leave earlier than you agreed to.

reimbursed loan. you take out the loan in your name and the company pays the monthly installment as long as youre with them. you leave early? then you assume the payments.
-or-
the other version. you take out the loan to pay, and after a year with the company they give you that money back. problem is youve just made interest payments...but...you have a chunk of money from that now. you never were missing money anyway except for the first years payments...but you get those back too, pay it all off and have a little something to show for it as a lump in your account.

theres all kinds of options. the PFT and you get nothing back is just robbery. the pro-rated promissory note is the way to go. however if you leave the collection agencies they send after you usually cost the company more than the money they will get back from you. so with some places you can get away with leaving early.....its up to you tho.

 

[LR25]

I would sign a contract no problem, and I have in the past, but I would not by no means PFT.

What happens if you get let go, or company folds, will they pay you off?

There is such a thing as a "legal" contract they can get to make sure you owe them if you split.

Don't shell the money out.

Good luck.

 

[jstyle13]

Thanks

Thanks for all the replies. Appreciate the input. I've decided I am going to do it ( I had pretty much already decided before I made the post). To all of those who said no, what other choices do I really have? I know people feel that those who PFT lower the bar for all pilots, and I wish it were a perfect world and they paid all pilots what they are truly worth. But should I just keep instructing? Should I keep slowly building that 172 time making about $300 a week and hope that an airline will pick me up in these conditions? Should I apply for job at Subway and fly on the weekends? A alot of people say no to those who ask about PFT, but what else should we do? Any suggestions?

(I don't mean this to sound like I'm trying to be a smart a$$, but those of you guys who said no all had like 4000 hours and I would assume are currently employed flying somewhere- Im not and would like to be)

JJ

 

[LR25]

You know, every single one of us were there. And yes, when I was a struggling pilot trying to get that job I didnt turn to PFT like a few of my freinds did, for one I couldnt afford.

Your preaching to the chior.

Im not going to bash you for what you decide, but if people keep PFTing, that is another link in the chain of low wages and put another qualified pilot that cant PFT out of work or whatever.

It also doesnt speak much for the operator if they are requiring you to pay for something that is automatically required of them.

Like I said before, they can draw up a legal contract for you to aggree to in case you bail on them, but they choose not to do this so they dont have to cover the cost of the training. Its very transparent.

Best of luck.

 

[patq1]

Re: Thanks

I agree with LR25. Also, don't forget there is a reason why people are leaving that place. It's probably because the company is cheap in a lot of other areas besides training. If they treat people right they will stay. I too had plenty of opportunities to PFT and declined. I stayed instructing in a Tomahawk(about $500 per month) and working as a waiter at night to pay the bills. I eventually got a job flying a caravan(when I had 2000 hours) for a good company and moved on from there. Just remember what you are doing to everybody that follows. Good luck!

Pat

 

[AZaviator]

I also like Andy Neil's idea. I see nothing wrong with that. I also like the idea of signing a training contract, similar to what the airlines do. If you leave within a certain period of time, you have to pay a certain amount of money. I would think this would be reasonable enough for them, instead of having you shell out a lot of money immediately. To me, a training contract seems like they are afraid of you leaving in a short period of time due to your experience and possibility of going somewhere because of it. On the other hand, paying for your training up front looks like they are afraid of you leaving in a short period of time due to being unhappy at the job. Just my opinion though. I personally wouldn't do it, regardless if I had 400hrs, or 4,000hrs.

 

[SDdriver]

I am always amazed at the links low time guys will go to, to get a job flying. It is like they can't wait until the industry gets better and a company will pay for thier training. I, like the above posters have had many chances to PFT, but I never sold out. I worked my way up the ladder flying traffic and every other thing I could that paid me money and built my time. I even stopped flying for 2 years in the early 90's cause I wouldn't PFT, well it didn't take to long and companies were paying for my training and paying me for what I was worth.
I see the PFT thing as selling your soul to the devil, I mean it almost seems the same as a crack addict, you know, selling off everything they have and paying whatever the cost just so they can get the job. I will never understand why people will do this. I mean I can't think of any other industry that requires this of people.

To all that PFT, please have more respect for yourself than to pay some company to hire you. I mean have you figured out yet that the reason that all the companies out there doing this are doing this because of people like you? If all of you out there that PFT told them to kiss your A$$, then they would be forced to pay you!! AS long as there are people like you, then companies will get away with this ridiculous practice. Have more dignity for yourself, DONT PFT!!!!

SD A guy who never sold out!

 

[350DRIVER]

13-
Have a little respect for yourself- in reality you are doing nothing less than "buying" yourself a job by "paying" for it and telling others (employers) that pilots should be willing to pay for the training no matter what. TT means nothing and YES many others have been in your position and had the same choice as you but opted not to get slapped in the face since they had "respect" for themselves....


come on-

3 5 0

 

[p.b.]

350-

You should make up your mind. For Part 135, this guy shouldn't PFT, but ab initio PFT is ok for 121 pilots?

 

[350DRIVER]

p.b-

I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges. I feel in no way, shape, or form that the Mesa program is anything close to "buying" a job or "PFT". This program is nothing more than taking a student pilot through ALL of his training to get the required certificates and ratings. If you think the Mesa program is PFT then I guess we all (including you and I ) are guilty of this since we had to get our training, certificates, and ratings somewhere to be employable.


am I wrong?
3 5 0

 

[p.b.]

350-

In your post you claim that TT shouldn't affect a pilot's decision to pay for training. Pilot's who pay for a right seat job on a CRJ are making just that decision, they are paying to avoid a relatively undesirable period in their career (ie. the time and experience which comes from being a CFI and flying single pilot in a twin P135). jstyle13 is trying to do that exact thing by finding a way out of his C172.

For the record, I do not think jstyle13 should pay for a job flying right seat in a Lear. I also think there is a lot to be learned from making decisions in the aircraft as the PIC.
You are right that everyone pays for their training, but there is a difference between going to Gulfstream to fly the CRJ with 300 hours and earning your ratings and finding your own experiences. Each of us has to decide what is right for our own situation.

 

[stillaboo]

You are right that everyone pays for their training, but there is a difference between going to Gulfstream to fly the CRJ with 300 hours and earning your ratings and finding your own experiences.

Yeah, there IS a difference. Gulfstream is PFT! MPD isn't. It's pay for ratings. No job guarantee at the end, no PFT, no foul.

For the record, Gulfstream doesn't even fly shiny jets like the CRJ; they fly the 1900 (I loved flying the Beech, by the way) And don't lump all of Gulfstream together. The captains that babysit the PFT FO's are usually guys who interviewed and were hired b/c of their skill as pilots, not the size of their wallet.

Appreciate the input. I've decided I am going to do it ( I had pretty much already decided before I made the post).

As for you, jstyle: If you'd already decided you were going to do it, why'd you even post? It's not like ANYONE supported your decision. Of course, what did you expect?

I wish you the best of luck in your new PFT Lear job.

-Boo!

 

[p.b.]

stillaboo-

Gulfstream is pft for Pinnacle in the CRJ. I know of a very low time pilot who went through the program last summer. You can check their website if you can't believe it.

www.gulfstreamacademy.com

 

[400A]

BE CAUTIOUS and do your homework before you write the check. A company with lears today that it turning over pilots most likely has a serious problem.

Find one of there X-pilots and find out why they left. You may find out about lack of maintenance, employee abuse or regulation violations. They may also lay off pilots due to flying shortages every 6 months. Its easy do do when they did not spend any money on you. Ask around the local airport.

If you are gonna do it, make sure the training is in a full motion sim, and you get your type. Otherwise Insurance companys will not recognise your experience or your training. This has only gotten worse since 9/11, dont let the sexy lear get you ripped of, and then mabe killed. Do some homework on the Payne Stewart accident and you will see what kind of mess a low time poorly trained crew can get you in to.

Best of luck!

 

[FlyingStarr]

good luck

Let's see, spend some money and have a salary. Don't spend money and make no money. People who throw stones usually just don't have the money and are crying foul. I don't like it but I understand it.

What is the difference between pay for training to get a lear job and paying for an MEI to be able to instruct in a twin at your flight school in order to get a better job down the road? There is none. It is an investment in your future...not to mention a risk.

The industry sucks right now and anyway to get a job is a good one. If he pays and the company screws him over then he is out of a lot of money. So the risk/reward is a decision he is making. Who are you to tell him he can't or shouldn't do it?

A lot of preachers here with type ratings worried about the other guy taking their rightful spot. Just worry about yourself and it will probably work out for you down the road.

 

[SDdriver]

THE DIFFERENCE??

Have you even read the previous post? The difference is the MEI he would pay for will be with him forever, the single company Lear training will not, meaning, if he goes to a different lear operator then he will have to go through their training program, and they could care less if he has been through a previous companies program. Now if he is getting typed that is a little different, but still.

So what is he going to do? Keep paying for training that is specified for that one company? Give me a break. You have no idea do you? Paying for your private and comm and inst and multi are basic requirments that you must meet to be able to work in the first place, so you are saying you understand paying for additional training that is company specific after you are qualified to work for your time and be paid accordingly?? Dude I don't know where you came from, but get your SH1TT straight before you jump in this discussion!!! You have the majority against you!!

So go spend some money and contribute to the downfall of this industry, or just go away!

SD NEVER PAID FOR A DIME OF TRAINING!! I get paid for what I am worth or I don't waiste my time with them! You pay me, or you don't get me! If more people had the backbone and self-respect to follow the same example, our wages wouldn't be in the crapper and NOBODY would have to pay for anything. Dude, get educated before you post on a subject!