1200-1500hrs For Minimum Requirements

[135pilot]

How long before we see minimums drop back to pre 9/11 era .

 

[avbug]

Probably another couple years, to four years, before the regular competitive mins get that low (possibly less). Folks have gotta realize that such hiring stats are completely unrealistic, and were even unbelievable at the time.

It still kills me to hear fifteen hundred or two thousand hour pilots speaking of themselves as "high time," and "experienced."

Those who got hired during the time frame when minimums were so low had a very unrealistic snapshot of the industry.

On a sidebar note, some friends flying a Gulfstream for a large company were fired yesterday. We recently had a thread discussing corporate flying, and these individuals were flying for that corporation. Yesterday, the owner of the gulfstream approached everyone, the entire flight department, and fired them with two minutes notice. That's corporate life. Yes, there are some great success stories, but I don't know anyone personally flying corporate who hasn't experienced this several times. Very fickle, and they were all very experienced, and had been there a long time.

That wasn't related to the origional question, but it wasn't worth starting a new thread for.

 

[bobbysamd]

Multi requirements

Another good question would be predictions on when minimum multi hours will drop.

A year ago commuters were hiring with 50-300 of multi <gasp>. At this point I'd bet you need 400-800 of multi to be considered for a commuter, and at least 2000 total and your ATP. These were typical figures during the last war and recession ten years ago.

Of course, you have to consider many factors, including slow hiring, furloughs and glut of available qualified pilots. As the economy improves, furloughees will be recalled, but it will take a while for the system to absorb them.

 

[chperplt]

It depends on the company. I know of a few companies that are still hiring with low time. I know of someone who got hired at a regional that flies 1900 with under 1000 total and 100 multi. I also know someone who was very recently hired at an RJ operator with 1200 total and less than 200 multi. Jobs are still out there for the lower time pilot. Maybe it's who you know, but low timers are still being hired today.

 

[flydog]

Its all relative. There are guys out there with 20,000 hrs that are scary and there are 1,000 hr pilots that are truly gifted. Time spent at the controls of an airplane does not lower one's inbred stupidity.

Its a shame that hiring has been reduced to a bunch of meaningless numbers that have no correlation to actual skill or experience.

What happened to the sim rides? I have been in sim sessions at Simuflite where the 7,000 hr PIC rolled the airplane inverted and crashed 5 times on a single engine go around IN THE SAME SIM SESSION!

If I was hiring someone to fly my $20,000,000 airplane I would want to make sure they at least know how to use a RUDDER PEDAL


Take the following examples:

1. A 4,000 hr CFI with 500 multi in a Seneca teaching at an FBO in Pueblo, TX

2. A 1,500 hr ATP with 800 jet time flying the Northeast Corridor

Who is more qualified for a commuter FO job? Who will be called for the interview? The answers are usually different

 

[AWACoff]

I would say the 1500 ATP is more qualified. The 4000TT CFI shows lack of initiative while the ATP has more experience in complex aircraft.

 

[flydog]

But the 4000 hr guy meets the mins at EJA and the ATP doesnt

 

[gundriver]

I don't necessarily agree that the 1500 hour pilot shows more initiative. More than likely for a 1500 hour pilot to have 800 hours of jet time, means he was flying right seat in uncle Louies Lear when he was a 700 hour pilot. I agree with an earlier post, Time doesn't necessarily = skill.

 

[EJA Capt]

Take the following examples:

1. A 4,000 hr CFI with 500 multi in a Seneca teaching at an FBO in Pueblo, TX

2. A 1,500 hr ATP with 800 jet time flying the Northeast Corridor

Who is more qualified for a commuter FO job? Who will be called for the interview? The answers are usually different

There is a lot more to consider than numbers:

1. Where IS the commuter job? Boston, Mass or Laredo Texas?
....makes a big difference.

2. What does the commuter fly? A C402 or a B1900?

3. 500 hours in a Seneca with (1) engine running vs. 800 hours in a jet in cruise flight with BOTH engines running? Who is more up on engine out performance?

4. 4000 hrs with 500 multi equals to SEVERAL years in the business. Lots of good info has been passed down. 800 hours in a jet is barley 12-18 months.

5. Was the 1500hr pilot military trained or was he flying in his cousin's Ce500 tuning the radio with no stick time?

I was one of the last guys from "the old school." Most of my contemporaries have 1000+ hours of dual given. Now, CFIs are insulted if Eagle of Comair haven't called by 1000 total time. It's not always what time you have, it's what you've done with your time.

 

[bobbysamd]

4000 hr CFI v. 1500 ATP with Jet

You shouldn't say the 4000 hour 500 multi CFI lacks initiative. Sometimes it's just plain hard to get a chance. Take it from me, a 4500 hour CFI, as someone who tried and tried and who knows.

But, as a practical matter, yes, the jet guy certainly would step ahead of the CFI in the interview sweepstakes. No matter how much of a bias I may have, I'd have to agree with H.R. on this one.

 

[jaybird]

EJACapt, you make a good point. I was pissed when my boss wouldn't upgrade me into the Seminole at work. I had just got my MEI, but I only had around 300 dual given. He then told me they used to not upgrade into the mooney until 500 dual given about five years ago (just an example). I guess myself and many others just thought it was normal to see people go the regionals with less than 1000tt.

 

[surplus1]

It is possible to have 10,000 hours of experience or 1 hour of experience repeated 10,000 times.

Quantity does not always equate to quality. I've flown with some "low time" pilots that were sharp as a tack, eager and competent. I've also flown with high time pilots that were lazy, complacent and thought they knew it all.

The quality of the training program is a major factor in developing the overall professional pilot. Poor training often equals low quality regardless of how much flying time one may have.

Our new military pilots often have very low time by civilian standards, yet they fly the world's most sophisticated equipment and do an outstanding job. They also benefit from outstanding training.

In contrast, civilian pilot training (outside the airlines) is often a case of the blind leading the blind. That's not the pilots' fault but it is the systems fault. It's amazing to think that a pilot with a brand new II rating, 250 hours and no real weather experience can actually "teach" instrument flying. In a lot of Regional Airline programs, the "instructors" know little about flying, less about teaching, love to intimidate and get the jobs because of their "popularity" with management rather than their piloting or teaching skills.

The rush to upgrade at some regionals is yet another problem. Often it comes way too soon and results in "mistakes" and discipline. The discipline in turn often keeps the pilot from moving on to bigger and better things. The "mistakes" are seldom related to physical manipulation of the controls. Most often it's a judgement error that comes due to inexperience and lack of maturity. It may be true that you don't learn much about what to do by sitting in the right seat, but you do learn a g reat deal about what NOT to do.

In the hiring arena, most of the decisions on who is hired or what minimums are required are made by Human Resources people, not pilots. Getting an airline job unfortunately has little to do with your flying abilities and a whole lot to do with your ability to project the stereotype that HR people want. As the Brits would say, it's a sticky wicket.

 

[bobbysamd]

Excellent post. It says it all, especially the comments about civilian training and the regional H.R., intimidation and maturity scenario. The stereotype observation is particularly cogent.

 

[Floyd94]

My uncle who is a retired 747 Ca with United was originally hired with a total of 500 hours total time. Plus he didn't even go to college. A lot of that happened a couple of years ago(late 90's early 2000's) so as you can see everything in this industry happens in cycles. Im sure there are a lot of other guys out there flying like my uncle who were hired with very low time and are now sitting in the left seat of a heavy jet. As my uncle didn't retire due to age, he had a heart attack which caused him to loose his medical. However he is still very active with the union. So as far as the hiring stats being "completely unrealistic", I guess it just depends on the ole economics theory.. supply and demand.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring at low mins

Well, for that matter, I've heard that during the 1960s airlines hired at 500 hours. I heard that Frontier hired at 500 and hired those with only a Private ticket during those years. I met some fellow years ago whose wife was a Frontier FA. He told me he walked in the door in Denver and was told he could be hired. I don't quite believe this story because the guy was somewhat of a blowhard, but I pass it on because it may be of interest.

 

[Freight Dog]

One of ALPA heroes - Rick Dubinsky was hired with 277 hours.
Times change.

 

[Sppedmode]

To be honest guys, I don't think the minimums have changed. The regionals are still 1000/100, 1200/200 or 1500/300 for the most part. However, the competitive times are up significantly due to all the furloughs.
So, if you are asking when will the mins change, my answer is they haven't.
If you are a CFI with 1000/100 and asking "When am I going to get hired?" I would have to say possibley 3rd to 4th quarter of this year and things will definately pick up in 2003. Just keep flying and building time so you look that much better to the airlines when they do start hiring again.

 

[bobbysamd]

Spam 'em

I always heard that it's a good idea to start sending in stuff when you are at or near the PUBLISHED mins, so, if, e.g., Mesa is (still) hiring at 1000/100, send in your resume. It has always been true that the actual competitive times deviate from the published times. In that regard, send in stuff, but don't expect much interest until you are at least 1500/500 with your ATP. In addition, 135 PIC will give you a real advantage over the flight instructors. It goes without saying that a little legit turbine will be icing on the cake.

My favorite examples of unbelievably low mins always were Aloha Island Air or whatever it was called in the late '80s, which at one time had something like 500/50, and Scenic, which were just as ridiculous.

 

[bigD]

Hey! There ain't nothing wrong with 500/50!

Yeah yeah I know - I have more work to do. Heh!

 

[Freight Dog]

Re: Spam 'em

I always heard that it's a good idea to start sending in stuff when you are at or near the PUBLISHED mins, so, if, e.g., Mesa is (still) hiring at 1000/100, send in your resume. It has always been true that the actual competitive times deviate from the published times. In that regard, send in stuff, but don't expect much interest until you are at least 1500/500 with your ATP. In addition, 135 PIC will give you a real advantage over the flight instructors. It goes without saying that a little legit turbine will be icing on the cake.

My favorite examples of unbelievably low mins always were Aloha Island Air or whatever it was called in the late '80s, which at one time had something like 500/50, and Scenic, which were just as ridiculous.

Bobby, we were hiring with 250 hours up until 1999 and it was pitiful. But then again, you'd go into a Twin Otter, and back in the 80's, that's all we flew. FO in the Twin Otter... you don't need more than a warm body. Since the Twotters are gone... and now all we fly are Dash 8's... the mins have gone up, so most people hired these days have over 2000 hours with 300-500ME which is more in line with the rest of the industry.