100 multi hrs for 5,500 bones

[utahpilot]

really?

A guy breaking into my house and stealing is committing a crime. I don't think it is a very intelligent argument to equate that with someone building time.

I should say, I had never even heard of GIA before reading this post. I have no plans to fly for them.

I do, however, find it interesting the hate and disdain that some people show towards some. I could just as easily rant and rave, call names and likewise throw a fit concerning pilots who fly for a certain airline just because I don't like their methods. I could go on to say that the managment at XYZ Airline is screwing pilots by the way they do things and that we as a pilot community should refuse to fly for them and go further to discrminate against pilots who fly for them, calling them 'whores' and telling them they cheapen the industry by working for such tyrants.

again, in the end, the cries made by some are not as critical as they would think.

 

[utahpilot]

also...

I worked as an UNPAID intern in college. The program was designed to build my professional experience and help me to be ready for the field upon graduation. I was an employee for the company, and I'm sure that my job created revenue. That is just how it is done, there is nothing unique about the flying biz. In fact, I'm surprised more flight schools don't call their new CFI's 'interns' and not pay them for 3 months or whatever while they build experience. It'd be just like what is done in tons of other industries.

 

[PositiveRate]

Utahpilot is right. The argument/discussion is moot. 3 important points below...

"bottom line? IT'S THE EXPERIENCE THAT COUNTS!! I've asked every major airline pilot I know and tons of regional guys, and the consensus is this: Get your time wherever and however you can, the more multi and turbine time, the better. What it all come down to in the end is SENIORITY-it's your pay, your schedule, your equipment. Whoever gets it first wins. "

Anyone who doesn't realize this from the get go is denying the reality of the airline business.

"I have yet to hear from ANYONE who say 'I interview people at XYZ airline, and I spit in the face of anyone who paid for time. I have heard TONS of comments, however, to the effect of what I've said above: the airlines are as interested in quality of time as much as quantity. Get all the quality time you can, as soon as you can. "

Me either. Anyone care to question this? I'd like to hear someone say "I didn't get a job because I PFT'd". People don't get jobs for lots of reasons...it's almost always personality related or associated with a lack of performance in a sim ride or knowledge in a tech interview....If you get an interview, they think you're qualified....it's your opportunity to blow.

"People have tried to portray people who have bought time as the scourge of the industry, shunned by all they fly with, scurrying through the terminal hiding their faces. Know what? That is a total lie! Folks get to their jobs in a variety of ways. Who can make judgements about the legitimacy of how they got there should be left to the hiring board, the pilot and his/her family. "

This goes back to my original post...who are we to judge someone else's decisions? I think everyone needs to choose their own path....someone who wants to get to the regionals fast and has money of their own or the support of their family to fly for places like Gulfstream are not bad people. They're not scabs...they're not taking MY job or YOUR job. That's not the way it works and if you see it that way, you need to check your perspective. Aviation owes me and you nothing....you have to open your own doors...how you do that is based on your drive, persistance, and resources.

Use what you have to your advantage...enable others to help you...That's what's brought myself and many others success in this business.

------
On a side note...with regards to my previous post. I was not implying CAA is pay for training....i was pointing out that a lot of people pay a lot of money to achieve their goals....that is their perogative. CAA is just one option (a smart one nowadays)...as is Gulfstream, as is working at your local FBO.

 

[flydog]

UtahPilot

Using your logic lets break it down like this:

Two guys are born. Both start out as sperm

1. Dude #1 doesnt go to college. He starts out as a street drug dealer when all of his firends are working at McDonalds and putting themselves through College. On slow days he makes book and beats up on guys that get behind on their big. Eventually he becomes boss of the largest drug cartel in the world. His income is over 1 billion dollars a year. He has homes in Switzerland, US, Bahamas, Paris. He is married with children who go to the finest schools and live in the safest and best neighborhoods. The want of nothing

2. Dude #2 works his ass off putting himself through college and eventually winds up working a 9-5 job that barely provides for his wife and children. He does this for 10 years before he is finally promoted to a job that allows him to move to a better home and send his kids to college.

So I guess the point is why dont all of go the quick and easy way to get to where we want in life. On the way there we will step on, spit on and piss on every person that get in our way so our path to success will be the quickest and easiest

When I get off my computer here Ill go rob a bank so I can buy some more turbine time and then I can get ahead on that seniority list.

 

[PositiveRate]

By posting crap like that, you only serve to belittle your own point. I love how people take things out of context and to an extreme to make their point.

"So I guess the point is why dont all of go the quick and easy way to get to where we want in life. On the way there we will step on, spit on and piss on every person that get in our way so our path to success will be the quickest and easiest "

If you seriously think this is what he meant....well I'd just hope that anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence wouldn't see it that way.

You piss and whine about the "low road" in aviation, but in making your point, you take the "low road" approach. What makes you any better?

 

[DCitrus9]

Utah,
exactly right, the guy committed a crime. As I said before, your argument justifies any means necessary to the end goal. I didn't say PFT was a crime, but it is an unacceptable method of "timebuilding" for reasons stated before.
Maybe you and positive rate should read and try to understand before ranting about how great PFT is.
On the interview side: I've spoken with several interviewers who dislike PFT and although don't consider it an automatic exclusion, you will have to work twice as hard to prove yourself. It's like having an accident/incident on your record.

 

[SDdriver]

GEEZ

Did everyone forget the basicsof what is does to the industry?

If you let the employers know they can get away with making you pay fot it, WHY pay you?

Once one does it they all join in and it becomes the norm like in the early 90's. It has to be accepted by everybody then because it is the standerd! THat is what some of you are not understanding. When it becomes standard we can't all do it, but no matter what if you go the traditional way, you will always make it! It may take a little longer, but youcan always make it. If it is standard, only the wealthy and those with great credit will make it and no one else will have the chance. Lets make everybody even and do away with PFT.

I don't really feel like anyone comming and saying it wasn't ever the standard, because if you don't remember 10,000 for flight saftey to get you regional job back in 1993-1997 you need to remain silent. It was standard and took years to stop it and tons of us leaving the field to force them to pay us once again.

Don't give them a reason to make it industry standard to pay for training.

Signed,

10yrs as a pilot, worked my A$$ off and NEVER PAID FOR TRAINING.

 

[SDdriver]

P.S.

Sorry for the horrible grammer, had to type it fast.

 

[cointyro]

I thought to add my own opinion on the subject. Admittedly, I am not a pilot, but am considering it in a few years. Nevertheless, I believe my opinion may be of interest.

All the talk above about "we will not stoop to their level" and "I personally have the honor to not take this job" or "we should band together, it isn't fair the company isn't paying us"; all of this is simply crap. Whether you like it or not, every working individual in this nation is a "whore" in the absolute sense. We all work for money. That's it, nothing more. Very few of us would ever go to work if we weren't paid - so we exchange our time and work for cash.

Furthermore, it is nowhere written down in this FREE MARKET ECONOMY that a company "shouldn't" do anything they like (as long as it is legal). If a company can get away by "selling" the right seat to those interested in turboprop time, then by all means, they should be allowed to do so. If a pilot is willing to pay the 18 grand, it is a win-win situation for both individuals.

To get my PPL, I have to pay to rent the plane and buy the CFI's time. In fact, to get many things in life (be it training, dinner, entertainment, rent, anything!), I have to pay for them. It doesn't matter that Gulfstream is receiving your service in flying their passengers around; you are paying for turboprop time. Conceptually, you couldn't care less if there are people in the back seat. Why should that matter that the company is also making money of paying passengers? Same number of turbo ME hours for you. You agreed to pay the 18 grand and you knew that you would be flying revenue passengers; it must be worth it TO YOU then. Some would say that isn't "fair". Concepts of "fairness" don't exist in business. Though many pilots are interested in being paid based on "fairness" and believe that their service is especially valuable, and therefore should be paid more - they are also full of crap.

The bottom line is that anyone's "service" is worth exactly as much as someone is willing to pay for it. I may think that I flip burgers especially well and should be paid $10 an hour since McDonald's Corporation makes millions in profit each year. But the bottom line is that Mickey D's will hire anyone they please - and there is some guy standing behind me that will work for less. That is the way a free market, capitalist economy such as ours works. Sometimes its harsh, but that's the reality of our nation. If you can't stand this reality, then you aren't ready to accept both the pros and cons of living in a free nation with the protected rights to pursue life and liberty. Perhaps you should consider a more pro-social government such as France and Denmark.

If you've got the money and think the Gulfstream deal is worth the turboprop time you receive, go for it. Otherwise, lay off. The reason that so many people turn away from this valid option is because others harp on it so much, and are resentful of someone spending the 18k they weren't willing to borrow themselves.

Don't kid yourself about fairness in this industry, or any other in the US. College is "pay for training", as zillions of other options to advance your skills in this nation- and there simply isn't anything wrong in doing so. You have to be realistic to suceed in any career, and one of those realizations is that you simply do what you have to do to advance your own interests. Choose your path wisely, and don't take anyone's advice without a grain of salt (mine included). Don't forget there isn't any "fairness" in this nation, so don't get bogged down in it. Just do what it takes.