100 multi hrs for 5,500 bones

[Timebuilder]

PositiveRate, negative post.

Those Comair academy guys probably paid about the same for their training as the rest of us, and they weren't paid much less as instructors. Their times are consistent with the pre 9-11 hiring times, and they have been pre sreened to the Comair standards, and already received some additional training to make certain they are up to speed. Going back to our theme, they didn't buy a job, they worked as instructors. The intro to the interview was the same as "networking".

The United comment is almost funny. They have been doing what you described for years. I think it has hurt their reputation as an airline, along with that of their female pilots. Yo, nited!

From the feedback I get from those Captains I meet from major airlines (Delta, Continental, USAir....) who have served on hiring boards, it makes a BIG difference, indeed, when someone has PFT'd.

A p***ing match? How about a lively discussion, based on facts and experience? I'd certainly encourage TDTURBO to look into a way of exposing PFT carriers to the flying public. I think they have the right to know that a "student" is in the right seat.

Maybe he's the one who bought the job that you could be working right now.

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair "P-F-T"

Not really. I second Timebuilder. I'm not a real fan of CAA, but I will defend it because it is not P-F-T. It is just another flight school that costs money. I am 100% sure that new students are not offered jobs when they enroll, and there is no guarantee that they will get "the interview" or even a CFI job. I'm sure that CAA students are under close scrutiny at all times and have to jump through similar hoops to get an interview as do MAPD grads. The CFIs Comair grads earn can be marketed anywhere. By the way, MAPD grads can interview with Mesa at 300 hours and do not have to instruct. Mesa students are hired upon enrollment, and they have absolutely no guarantee of an interview.

Let me provide another perspective. I worked in radio stations for 19 years before I went to aviation full-time. I worked hard to get to where I was and in so doing worked plenty of lousy hours. Nearly every radio station in which I worked would hire people with far less experience than me and probably for the same or more money than I was paid, and on better shifts to boot. How do you think that made me feel? Compare that to P-F-T and to some of United's hiring practices.

Just more .02 opinions.

 

[Timebuilder]

Ah, memory lane.

At one station, they put an intern on as the board op when Stern's program replaced our local morning show. Why pay an employee?

Once, I recommended a woman I had worked with at another station. They put her in the midday slot when the regular was off for a few days, which was the spot I had been angling for.

I love radio. (standard offer of sale of a bridge. Location: Brooklyn....)

 

[utahpilot]

hmm, oh well

This debate gets so old, but I have to weigh in.

I recently did a search of the top posters on this board. What I found was that this board is, in fact, a VERY small world. There are lots of registered users, but it is a very SMALL percentage that make up the majority of the posts. So? The opinions expressed here are NOT reflective, necessarily, of those of pilots on hiring boards at the major airlines. Having said that, examine the following scenario:

Two pilots are waiting for their interviews at (fill in blank with DAL, UAL, whatever). They are discussing the usual stuff, and it goes something like this.

Dude: So, what's you're background?
Guy: I was at (blank-Comair, Skyway, Mesa, whatever) for about 5 years. Before that I was a flight instructor. You?
Dude: I was a CFI, too, did some flying with a cargo outfit to build my multi time and experience, then got on with (blank). That was 4 years ago.
Guy: I wish I could've got a cargo job. I ended up instructing for almost 3 years before getting the call.
Dude: I only worked as a CFI for a year. Great experience, but I needed to build my multi time, and where I was at, it was almost impossible. That's why I did the cargo thing. Cost me a ton in loans, but in the long run, it'll get me the seniority I want faster.

ok, same situation for both, right? who knows who'll get the major gig. They're equally qualified. The difference is how long it took each to get there. In the end, it's a matter of years at a major and seniority. Let's look back in time, though, at how they arrived here.

Dude: took out loans, worked hard, made lots of sacrfices of his time, his families time and resources, and got all his instructor ratings. Taught for about a year, then came up against the same problem most do-can't get the job without the time, can't get the time without the job. He took out another loan to fly right seat in a cargo turbine for 250 hours. Got TONS of real world, real weather, real ATC, real LIFE experience that comes with slugging it out in the soup. This experience, though a financial sacrifice, got him more ready for his first 121 job on an RJ. While it was tough to take out more loans, this experience was invaluable and it got him there probably at least a year faster than had he stayed instructing in a Travelair, maybe more.

Guy: took out loans, worked hard, made lots of sacrfices of his time, his families time and resources, and got all his instructor ratings. Taught for about a year, then came up against the same problem most do-can't get the job without the time, can't get the time without the job. Kept at it, and over the next year and a half was able to instruct about 140 hours in a twin. Had a hard time getting interviewed, but finally did and made it to class. Was blown away by turbine systems, but worked hard and made it. Wished he had some turbine experience in real world weather, ATC, etc.

bottom line? IT'S THE EXPERIENCE THAT COUNTS!! I've asked every major airline pilot I know and tons of regional guys, and the consensus is this: Get your time wherever and however you can, the more multi and turbine time, the better. What it all come down to in the end is SENIORITY-it's your pay, your schedule, your equipment. Whoever gets it first wins. Each day, week, month you let go by, someone else is getting it. And that someone else will have Christmas off, will not have to work Thanksgiving, their kid's birthday, etc. Getting the most experience that you can that most resembles the job you want is key.

I guess I've gone on enough. I understand the complaint of some in regards to PFT, but so many are just versions of sour grapes. 'He had more money than me, and that's why he got the job-wah wah wah!' Welcome to the real world. I think most people, folks on this board included, want to get the most experience they can for the least money and arrive at their airline of choice as fast as possible. The idea of buying 250 hours in turbine equipment sounds, to me, like money well spent. And I, like others, don't have it and can't get it from relatives. If I did that, it'd mean another loan. But, in the long run, it could mean achieving my career goals faster and allowing me to do the things I want to do. It's a race to get a number, in the end.

Not all guys who choose to pay 15K for 250 multi hours are scabs, whores, or whatever else you want to call it. Lots are guys with families, bills, etc., and are just trying to build their time and experience so that they can achieve what they set out to do.

I have yet to hear from ANYONE who say 'I interview people at XYZ airline, and I spit in the face of anyone who paid for time. I have heard TONS of comments, however, to the effect of what I've said above: the airlines are as interested in quality of time as much as quantity. Get all the quality time you can, as soon as you can.

Laying myself out in the open to get flamed, I know. Save it. All the points are made above (lots by people who do not fly for an airline and never have). I am well versed in the value judgements placed on this topic, no need for ya'll to review. Think about though. Who between Dude and Guy got the job first at the regional? Dude, who bought a ton of turbine hours, and therefore made his career progress faster. Who is a better pilot? who knows, the interviewers and the sim will tell. Who made the most use of his time and resources to get to this point? Dude, at great risk financially maybe, but he worked it out.

I hope this is taken in the spirit intended. I think that there are lots of ways to get to where you want to in this business. If you're like me, though, I think it's a quality of life issue. Having a higher seniority number makes my quality of life better, puts me first in line to fly more complex equipment, etc.

Sorry for the rant. We're all on the same road, I believe.

 

[Freight Dog]

The example you used about "Dude" and "Guy." 250 hours of turbine time where they are *NOT* a required crewmember is flawed. In other words, the plane leaves with them or without them. I'd call that worthless waste of money.

You know.. people with bare multi rating and 1200 hours get hired flying twins all over the country. Some get hired with less than 1200hrs and LESS THAN 10 hours of multi to fly VFR cargo in twins. I know, I'm a living proof and I'm a white male. Although I didn't instruct, people can easily instruct for a year, and if they lack multi time, they can easily find a Part 135 check flying job flying twins to build up their multiengine time and REAL WORLD experience, while getting paid. I know outfits that pay pretty well and alls ya need is 1200 hours. 6 months of hauling checks, and you'll start looking real good to the regionals. Not to mention the small fact that you'll save your 18k while getting even better experience - you are not being babysat by a PIC.

The main difference between a cargo outfit you can fly for and get paid for.... AND Gulfscam and Gulfscam-like programs is simple.. Those schemes are WAY louder and they spend a lot of money on advertising those positions because they can afford to scream: 250 hours of first officer time for 20k and you'll go off to United!!!

But if you are determined to make it, you'll find honorable ways of getting yourself to where you want to be. It boils down to you.

 

[utahpilot]

I expected such posts. People who claim that it is 'easy' to get a job flying checks at 1200 hours and little multi don't live in the same world I do. You can't even get a CFI job the way things are right now. My point was, everyone has their own goals and things to deal with. A 20 year old kid with no wife, kids, or bills might look at 2-3 years instructing and another year doing cargo as a good start. A guy who is 33 and made a career change with a house, kids and bills to pay would be foolish to delay the process. The value judgements made by so many are not anything used in the hiring process. People have tried to portray people who have bought time as the scourge of the industry, shunned by all they fly with, scurrying through the terminal hiding their faces. Know what? That is a total lie! Folks get to their jobs in a variety of ways. Who can make judgements about the legitimacy of how they got there should be left to the hiring board, the pilot and his/her family. Remember, this is a job like any other, and people have to consider total career earnings, ability to support a family, retirement and lifestyle issues when making these decisions.

It is not so clear-cut an issue as you would like to paint it as being.

 

[Freight Dog]

Ya know... the jobs ARE still there. My buddy who teaches ground school for a cargo outfit says they can't find qualified guys.. I'm sure that's the case at many places. Somehow, I don't think it's just enough to send a resume in there. I think if you want something bad enough, you just may get it. As for a 33 year old example... flying a C-402 for 32k a year would sound like a much better alternative than paying 18k for 250 hours... but that's just me.. but then again what do i know.

 

[bobbysamd]

Multi time

Another way to look at it is this: Let's say one applicant purchases and flies off 500 hours of multi in a Baron and shows it all in his logbook. Those are his only multi hours. He is not a pleasure pilot who decided to change careers, but set off from Day 1 to be a professional pilot. Another applicant, with the same aspirations as the first guy, purchased and flew off 100 hours to meet insurance quals, got a job instructing, built another 300 hours instructing, and flew checks for another 100. Both are otherwise out of the same cookie cutter. Both bought time. Which applicant will the conehead pilot recruiters be more likely to hire?

Probably the crucible of the interview will determine the answer. Why did one buy 500 hours of time and the other 100 hours? How was it paid for? Loans? Savings? Loan from Mom and Dad? Gift from Mom and Dad or Uncle/Aunt Airline Pilot?

Just some more food for thought.

 

[utahpilot]

spelling it out

maybe. I regularly scour the internet, and I find no jobs.

to illustrate again, let's break it down.

two CFI's are at about 800TT, we'll say about 15 hours multi. They both have the goal of getting to a major someday. We'll say both are married and have one child, with plans for more.

CFI-A pays 13k for a right seat deal with a cargo operator. In 2-3 months he has over 1100 TT and almost 300 ME, most of it turbine. He gets an interview with a regional and is in class 3 months after finishing the cargo gig.

CFI-B keeps on instructing. He takes out a mall loan to get his MEI, and it takes him over a year to get the 1200 TT and 135 mins you discussed (he can't move, his responsibilites to his family prevent it). He gets on flying cargo, and is committed to the usual year contract. He gets great experience and gets into class at a regional 16 months after starting the cargo gig.

who will have a better seniority number, schedule, pay, etc? who realized his goal first? both have issues to deal with as far as moving, debt, etc.

all I'm saying is, whatever works for you. this idea that you're going to be forever black balled is just not true.

 

[DCitrus9]

Utah,
Consider this: The guy who breaks into your house and steals your TV and pawns it to feed his kids is also only concerned about the bottom line- he puts food on the table. Using your arguments this is considered acceptable because all that matters is that their is cereal in his kid's bowl in the morning.
Gulfstream is not an acceptable method of building time. It is a job, that means an employer pays you to fly. Not you pay them. Yes, we all have to build time. Spend that same money to rent a plane for fun and fly around with friends, or use it to live off of while flight instructing, but DO NOT pay to sit in a required crewmember's seat on an airliner. The key here is required crewmember: if you don't pay, then they will be forced to PAY YOU for the same turbine time you want so badly.