$1,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 question for CJC IBT supporters

[cloudkicker1981]

Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2008
SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION. (a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that--

• (1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section; and
  (2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions.

(b) DEFINITIONS- In this section, the following definitions apply:

• (1) AIR CARRIER- The term `air carrier' means an air carrier that holds a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code.
  (2) COVERED AIR CARRIER- The term `covered air carrier' means an air carrier that is involved in a covered transaction.
  (3) COVERED EMPLOYEE- The term `covered employee' means an employee who--
  • (A) is not a temporary employee; and
    (B) is a member of a craft or class that is subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).
  (4) COVERED TRANSACTION- The term `covered transaction' means--
  • (A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which
    (B) involves the transfer of ownership or control of--
    • (i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or
      (ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier.

(c) APPLICATION- This section shall not apply to any covered transaction involving a covered air carrier that took place before the date of enactment of this Act.
(d) EFFECTIVENESS OF PROVISION- This section shall become effective on the date of enactment of this Act and shall continue in effect in fiscal years after fiscal year 2008.
http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/...10JBN0k9:e685:

You are the man bro haha clown........

 

[Flyer1015]

Like I said before, wise up, get ALPA on property. If Colgan turns down ALPA for a second time, then ya'll are screwed. Get ready for a bad integration.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I would be willing to bet that there are fewer Teamster supporters among PCL pilots than there are ALPA supporters among CJC pilots. In a merged carrier, Teamsters lose.

In a merged carrier, they will lose no matter who the Union is, DoinTime. You think Pinnacle pilots are gonna offer them a 1 for 1 date of hire seniority merge or not try to scope them out? We saw how ALPA did the seniority merger at US AIR / AMERICA WEST - you think that was fair? No matter which way they go, Pinnacle pilots and management will come out on top, that is what history shows us, and history shows us by looking at what happened at both US Air when they merged and with TWA when they merged, it doesn't matter if you're same Union or not. In fact they may have certain protections if they stay on a separate list, especially if Pinnacle ever finds themselves furloughing.

They're screwed on a single list no matter which Union they choose. They don't HAVE to choose ALPA. As I said on the other thread, they should as a group research which one will look out for their true interests better. ALPA by default is not the answer, several pilot groups attest to that and have left them like a hot potato. Some have left the teamsters as well. Neither have all the solutions, none are problem-free OR corruption-free. Both will eagerly go after your dues.

ALPA may be the one, but they should do their homework and not just assume it is so. It may not be.

 

[PCL_128]

In a merged carrier, they will lose no matter who the Union is, DoinTime. You think Pinnacle pilots are gonna offer them a 1 for 1 date of hire seniority merge or not try to scope them out?

DOH is a distinct possibility. A ratio would also be a distinct possibility. The PCL MEC has consistently held a very fair stance on this issue. They have no desire to screw over the CJC pilots.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

said the spider to the fly. If that is true that is awesome and I give Kudos to the pilots. Would they back that up in writing? Even then, with no contract, it wouldn't be official even if they did, though.

Not knocking ALPA, not knocking the pinnacle pilots either, for that matter. Re-reading my post it may have appeared I was anti-Pinnacle. I'm not. I just get sick of the ALPA IS MY ONE AND ONLY TRUE LOVE posts by some of these guys who think ALPA is the next best thing since sliced bread, when ALPA consistently SCREWS the regionals over and over.

Unions are a necessary evil, and they should DEFINITELY unionize, but ALPA is not the default choice for a regional pilot they would want us all to think they are, and there ARE other options, and pilots should look at them all and make educated decisions not based on rhetoric.

 

[PCL_128]

If you drive a truck, join the IBT. If you drive a Q400, join ALPA. It's really that simple. Expecting a trucker's union to take care of your interests in absurd.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

If you drive a truck, join the IBT. If you drive a Q400, join ALPA. It's really that simple. Expecting a trucker's union to take care of your interests in absurd.

Oh? Tell the Q400 drivers at Horizon that, or the 3000+ net jets pilots who recently got a contract that surpasses most 2nd tier 73 companies and even the majors. Starting pay $67k, 5-year Captain over $100k. Teamster contracts. What do you make?

 

[Options_SLAVE]

If you drive a truck, join the IBT. If you drive a Q400, join ALPA. It's really that simple. Expecting a trucker's union to take care of your interests in absurd.

Ah, spoken like a true ignoramous.


Tell the Q400 drivers at Horizon that, or the 3000+ net jets pilots who recently got a contract that surpasses most 2nd tier large-carrier companies and even the majors. Starting pay $67k, 5-year Captain over $100k. Teamster contracts. What do you make?

 

[DoinTime]

We saw how ALPA did the seniority merger at US AIR / AMERICA WEST - you think that was fair?

ALPA DOES NOT DO SENIORITY INTEGRATIONS!

The USAir and AmWest MECs were responsible for coming up with a mutually agreeable integration. They failed. Per ALPA policy the list is then to be integrated by an unbiased arbitrator that is not associated with the Airline or the Union.

The fairness of the arbitrators integration is subject to perspective. I think the AmWest guys thought it was a pretty fair deal. Personally, I think the decision was flawed because it did not take into account the accelerated attrition rate at USAir because of their older pilot group. Thats my opinion though and decisions in error are the risk that both sides take when they agree to let an arbitrator make binding decisions for them.

To sit back and blame ALPA national for the train wreck of an integration at USAirways only shows your complete misunderstanding of how the process works.

In a merged carrier, they will lose no matter who the Union is, DoinTime. You think Pinnacle pilots are gonna offer them a 1 for 1 date of hire seniority merge or not try to scope them out?

You can never really determine what is fair until both parties sit down with all the data and get something worked out. 1 for 1 is probably not fair as all the Colgan pilots would end end up on the top half of the combined list. What you can bet on is the PCL pilots taking the near term step of protecting their jobs. That means scope regardless of who ends up representing Colgan, if anyone.

 

[PCL_128]

Tell the Q400 drivers at Horizon that

I'd be happy to. Their pay rates are pretty good, but their work rules don't come close to comparing to the ALPA regionals like ExpressJet and ASA that have negotiated their agreements in the last few years. This is what the IBT is incapable of understanding, because they don't understand air line pilots and our issues. To a truck driver, things like duty rigs, trip rigs, training conflicts, cancellation pay, vacation trip-touch, etc... aren't issues that they have to deal with. They don't understand how these things can affect W2 compensation and overall QOL. ALPA has been dealing with these issues for over three-quarters of a century. They know air line pilot contracts. The IBT does not.

or the 3000+ net jets pilots who recently got a contract that surpasses most 2nd tier large-carrier companies and even the majors

You mean the same NetJets pilots that just dumped the IBT and created their own union? They didn't feel that they were getting their money's worth out of the IBT. That's really saying something with the contract they got. They are obviously less than impressed with the IBT.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

It sure is interesting how ALPA is never at fault. It's comical to read.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I'd be happy to. Their pay rates are pretty good, but their work rules don't come close to comparing to the ALPA regionals like ExpressJet and ASA that have negotiated their agreements in the last few years. This is what the IBT is incapable of understanding, because they don't understand air line pilots and our issues. To a truck driver, things like duty rigs, trip rigs, training conflicts, cancellation pay, vacation trip-touch, etc... aren't issues that they have to deal with. They don't understand how these things can affect W2 compensation and overall QOL. ALPA has been dealing with these issues for over three-quarters of a century. They know air line pilot contracts. The IBT does not.



You mean the same NetJets pilots that just dumped the IBT and created their own union? They didn't feel that they were getting their money's worth out of the IBT. That's really saying something with the contract they got. They are obviously less than impressed with the IBT.

Heh. Well you force me to defend the teamsters, when I was not rooting for either. Whatever. You are referring to ASA and ExpressJet topping Horizon's contract. Well duh, what do you think will happen when Horizon negotiates their next contract?

There is not a single Net Jets pilot who is complaining about their net jets contract. Have you read their contract? How could they complain about it?! They left the teamsters for personal reasons - they were large enough to support themselves and not pay the IBT National and take the burden on themselves. I don't think that's an option for little Colgan's pilot group.

Don't trip on that ball and chain that has ALPA stamped on it. ;-) Colgan pilots should research heavily before they choose. Also, again, I re-iterate, I'm not against ALPA. I just know they are not the only choice, and they have a propensity to screw smaller companies during mergers, even if Doin-Time doesn't want to blame ALPA for ALPA-ALPA seniority list mergers. ;-)

 

[PCL_128]

Heh. Well you force me to defend the teamsters, when I was not rooting for either. Whatever. You are referring to ASA and ExpressJet topping Horizon's contract. Well duh, what do you think will happen when Horizon negotiates their next contract?

Um, no. XJT and ASA didn't top the Horizon contract, because the Horizon contract was never in the lead in the first place. Before XJT, the top regional contract was CMR, which was signed before the Horizon agreement. You've been fooled by Horizon's payrates without digging deeper and looking at the work rules and soft pay. Again, this is the stuff that ALPA understands and the IBT does not.

They left the teamsters for personal reasons

Personal reasons? I don't even know what that means. They left because they were sending money to the IBT International and getting nothing for it in return. The NetJets pilots got themselves that contract, through no help whatsoever from the IBT. They realized that and said "buh-bye" to the IBT. The CJC pilots would be wise not to ever send a dime to the IBT, because there will be no return on investment.

Don't trip on that ball and chain that has ALPA stamped on it. ;-) Colgan pilots should research heavily before they choose. Also, again, I re-iterate, I'm not against ALPA. I just know they are not the only choice, and they have a propensity to screw smaller companies during mergers, even if Doin-Time doesn't want to blame ALPA for ALPA-ALPA seniority list mergers. ;-)

I think DoinTime has demonstrated that you don't really understand ALPA merger policy or the ALG-Mohawk LPPs. The maximum protection in the event of a merger for the CJC pilots would be ALPA, hands down.

 

[suupah]

Like I said before, wise up, get ALPA on property. If Colgan turns down ALPA for a second time, then ya'll are screwed. Get ready for a bad integration.

This statement here is why many at Colgan want NOTHING to do with PNCL's ALPA or pilot group. You should consider keeping some comments to yourself and do a better job faking the "brothers in aviation" sentiment.

 

[Mr Wu]

This statement here is why many at Colgan want NOTHING to do with PNCL's ALPA or pilot group. You should consider keeping some comments to yourself and do a better job faking the "brothers in aviation" sentiment.

This is the sort of thing that I was referring to when I wrote about 9E sabotaging the 9L vote. As an organizing committee member I was constantly defending the shyte that was being posted by PCL128, Flyer1015, Dointime, etc. about what would happen if CJC didn't vite in ALPA. You three are personally responsible for planting doubt in those 4 guys. The best thing you could do this year is shut your holes.