$1,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 question for CJC IBT supporters

[cloudkicker1981]

Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2008
SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION. (a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that--

• (1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section; and
  (2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions.

(b) DEFINITIONS- In this section, the following definitions apply:

• (1) AIR CARRIER- The term `air carrier' means an air carrier that holds a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code.
  (2) COVERED AIR CARRIER- The term `covered air carrier' means an air carrier that is involved in a covered transaction.
  (3) COVERED EMPLOYEE- The term `covered employee' means an employee who--
  • (A) is not a temporary employee; and
    (B) is a member of a craft or class that is subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).
  (4) COVERED TRANSACTION- The term `covered transaction' means--
  • (A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which
    (B) involves the transfer of ownership or control of--
    • (i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or
      (ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier.

(c) APPLICATION- This section shall not apply to any covered transaction involving a covered air carrier that took place before the date of enactment of this Act.
(d) EFFECTIVENESS OF PROVISION- This section shall become effective on the date of enactment of this Act and shall continue in effect in fiscal years after fiscal year 2008.
http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/...10JBN0k9:e685:

You are the man bro haha clown........

 

[Flyer1015]

Like I said before, wise up, get ALPA on property. If Colgan turns down ALPA for a second time, then ya'll are screwed. Get ready for a bad integration.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I would be willing to bet that there are fewer Teamster supporters among PCL pilots than there are ALPA supporters among CJC pilots. In a merged carrier, Teamsters lose.

In a merged carrier, they will lose no matter who the Union is, DoinTime. You think Pinnacle pilots are gonna offer them a 1 for 1 date of hire seniority merge or not try to scope them out? We saw how ALPA did the seniority merger at US AIR / AMERICA WEST - you think that was fair? No matter which way they go, Pinnacle pilots and management will come out on top, that is what history shows us, and history shows us by looking at what happened at both US Air when they merged and with TWA when they merged, it doesn't matter if you're same Union or not. In fact they may have certain protections if they stay on a separate list, especially if Pinnacle ever finds themselves furloughing.

They're screwed on a single list no matter which Union they choose. They don't HAVE to choose ALPA. As I said on the other thread, they should as a group research which one will look out for their true interests better. ALPA by default is not the answer, several pilot groups attest to that and have left them like a hot potato. Some have left the teamsters as well. Neither have all the solutions, none are problem-free OR corruption-free. Both will eagerly go after your dues.

ALPA may be the one, but they should do their homework and not just assume it is so. It may not be.

 

[PCL_128]

In a merged carrier, they will lose no matter who the Union is, DoinTime. You think Pinnacle pilots are gonna offer them a 1 for 1 date of hire seniority merge or not try to scope them out?

DOH is a distinct possibility. A ratio would also be a distinct possibility. The PCL MEC has consistently held a very fair stance on this issue. They have no desire to screw over the CJC pilots.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

said the spider to the fly. If that is true that is awesome and I give Kudos to the pilots. Would they back that up in writing? Even then, with no contract, it wouldn't be official even if they did, though.

Not knocking ALPA, not knocking the pinnacle pilots either, for that matter. Re-reading my post it may have appeared I was anti-Pinnacle. I'm not. I just get sick of the ALPA IS MY ONE AND ONLY TRUE LOVE posts by some of these guys who think ALPA is the next best thing since sliced bread, when ALPA consistently SCREWS the regionals over and over.

Unions are a necessary evil, and they should DEFINITELY unionize, but ALPA is not the default choice for a regional pilot they would want us all to think they are, and there ARE other options, and pilots should look at them all and make educated decisions not based on rhetoric.

 

[PCL_128]

If you drive a truck, join the IBT. If you drive a Q400, join ALPA. It's really that simple. Expecting a trucker's union to take care of your interests in absurd.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

If you drive a truck, join the IBT. If you drive a Q400, join ALPA. It's really that simple. Expecting a trucker's union to take care of your interests in absurd.

Oh? Tell the Q400 drivers at Horizon that, or the 3000+ net jets pilots who recently got a contract that surpasses most 2nd tier 73 companies and even the majors. Starting pay $67k, 5-year Captain over $100k. Teamster contracts. What do you make?

 

[Options_SLAVE]

If you drive a truck, join the IBT. If you drive a Q400, join ALPA. It's really that simple. Expecting a trucker's union to take care of your interests in absurd.

Ah, spoken like a true ignoramous.


Tell the Q400 drivers at Horizon that, or the 3000+ net jets pilots who recently got a contract that surpasses most 2nd tier large-carrier companies and even the majors. Starting pay $67k, 5-year Captain over $100k. Teamster contracts. What do you make?

 

[DoinTime]

We saw how ALPA did the seniority merger at US AIR / AMERICA WEST - you think that was fair?

ALPA DOES NOT DO SENIORITY INTEGRATIONS!

The USAir and AmWest MECs were responsible for coming up with a mutually agreeable integration. They failed. Per ALPA policy the list is then to be integrated by an unbiased arbitrator that is not associated with the Airline or the Union.

The fairness of the arbitrators integration is subject to perspective. I think the AmWest guys thought it was a pretty fair deal. Personally, I think the decision was flawed because it did not take into account the accelerated attrition rate at USAir because of their older pilot group. Thats my opinion though and decisions in error are the risk that both sides take when they agree to let an arbitrator make binding decisions for them.

To sit back and blame ALPA national for the train wreck of an integration at USAirways only shows your complete misunderstanding of how the process works.

In a merged carrier, they will lose no matter who the Union is, DoinTime. You think Pinnacle pilots are gonna offer them a 1 for 1 date of hire seniority merge or not try to scope them out?

You can never really determine what is fair until both parties sit down with all the data and get something worked out. 1 for 1 is probably not fair as all the Colgan pilots would end end up on the top half of the combined list. What you can bet on is the PCL pilots taking the near term step of protecting their jobs. That means scope regardless of who ends up representing Colgan, if anyone.

 

[PCL_128]

Tell the Q400 drivers at Horizon that

I'd be happy to. Their pay rates are pretty good, but their work rules don't come close to comparing to the ALPA regionals like ExpressJet and ASA that have negotiated their agreements in the last few years. This is what the IBT is incapable of understanding, because they don't understand air line pilots and our issues. To a truck driver, things like duty rigs, trip rigs, training conflicts, cancellation pay, vacation trip-touch, etc... aren't issues that they have to deal with. They don't understand how these things can affect W2 compensation and overall QOL. ALPA has been dealing with these issues for over three-quarters of a century. They know air line pilot contracts. The IBT does not.

or the 3000+ net jets pilots who recently got a contract that surpasses most 2nd tier large-carrier companies and even the majors

You mean the same NetJets pilots that just dumped the IBT and created their own union? They didn't feel that they were getting their money's worth out of the IBT. That's really saying something with the contract they got. They are obviously less than impressed with the IBT.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

It sure is interesting how ALPA is never at fault. It's comical to read.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I'd be happy to. Their pay rates are pretty good, but their work rules don't come close to comparing to the ALPA regionals like ExpressJet and ASA that have negotiated their agreements in the last few years. This is what the IBT is incapable of understanding, because they don't understand air line pilots and our issues. To a truck driver, things like duty rigs, trip rigs, training conflicts, cancellation pay, vacation trip-touch, etc... aren't issues that they have to deal with. They don't understand how these things can affect W2 compensation and overall QOL. ALPA has been dealing with these issues for over three-quarters of a century. They know air line pilot contracts. The IBT does not.



You mean the same NetJets pilots that just dumped the IBT and created their own union? They didn't feel that they were getting their money's worth out of the IBT. That's really saying something with the contract they got. They are obviously less than impressed with the IBT.

Heh. Well you force me to defend the teamsters, when I was not rooting for either. Whatever. You are referring to ASA and ExpressJet topping Horizon's contract. Well duh, what do you think will happen when Horizon negotiates their next contract?

There is not a single Net Jets pilot who is complaining about their net jets contract. Have you read their contract? How could they complain about it?! They left the teamsters for personal reasons - they were large enough to support themselves and not pay the IBT National and take the burden on themselves. I don't think that's an option for little Colgan's pilot group.

Don't trip on that ball and chain that has ALPA stamped on it. ;-) Colgan pilots should research heavily before they choose. Also, again, I re-iterate, I'm not against ALPA. I just know they are not the only choice, and they have a propensity to screw smaller companies during mergers, even if Doin-Time doesn't want to blame ALPA for ALPA-ALPA seniority list mergers. ;-)

 

[PCL_128]

Heh. Well you force me to defend the teamsters, when I was not rooting for either. Whatever. You are referring to ASA and ExpressJet topping Horizon's contract. Well duh, what do you think will happen when Horizon negotiates their next contract?

Um, no. XJT and ASA didn't top the Horizon contract, because the Horizon contract was never in the lead in the first place. Before XJT, the top regional contract was CMR, which was signed before the Horizon agreement. You've been fooled by Horizon's payrates without digging deeper and looking at the work rules and soft pay. Again, this is the stuff that ALPA understands and the IBT does not.

They left the teamsters for personal reasons

Personal reasons? I don't even know what that means. They left because they were sending money to the IBT International and getting nothing for it in return. The NetJets pilots got themselves that contract, through no help whatsoever from the IBT. They realized that and said "buh-bye" to the IBT. The CJC pilots would be wise not to ever send a dime to the IBT, because there will be no return on investment.

Don't trip on that ball and chain that has ALPA stamped on it. ;-) Colgan pilots should research heavily before they choose. Also, again, I re-iterate, I'm not against ALPA. I just know they are not the only choice, and they have a propensity to screw smaller companies during mergers, even if Doin-Time doesn't want to blame ALPA for ALPA-ALPA seniority list mergers. ;-)

I think DoinTime has demonstrated that you don't really understand ALPA merger policy or the ALG-Mohawk LPPs. The maximum protection in the event of a merger for the CJC pilots would be ALPA, hands down.

 

[suupah]

Like I said before, wise up, get ALPA on property. If Colgan turns down ALPA for a second time, then ya'll are screwed. Get ready for a bad integration.

This statement here is why many at Colgan want NOTHING to do with PNCL's ALPA or pilot group. You should consider keeping some comments to yourself and do a better job faking the "brothers in aviation" sentiment.

 

[Mr Wu]

This statement here is why many at Colgan want NOTHING to do with PNCL's ALPA or pilot group. You should consider keeping some comments to yourself and do a better job faking the "brothers in aviation" sentiment.

This is the sort of thing that I was referring to when I wrote about 9E sabotaging the 9L vote. As an organizing committee member I was constantly defending the shyte that was being posted by PCL128, Flyer1015, Dointime, etc. about what would happen if CJC didn't vite in ALPA. You three are personally responsible for planting doubt in those 4 guys. The best thing you could do this year is shut your holes.

 

[Flyer1015]

This statement here is why many at Colgan want NOTHING to do with PNCL's ALPA or pilot group. You should consider keeping some comments to yourself and do a better job faking the "brothers in aviation" sentiment.

Doesn't matter what people at Colgan want to do or not do with Pinnacle ALPA or the pilot group. Why? Because the bottom line, THEY got BOUGHT out by OUR holding company (which was a bullsh*t thing to begin with, Pinnacle Corp was formed SOLELY to bypass our scope clauses. We are Pinnacle Inc.) That's horsesh*t!

"Brothers in aviation" sentiment is still here, and the brothers are telling every Colgan pilot to vote in ALPA. NOW!

It doesn't matter what Colgan wants or doesn't want. It doesn't matter what your opinion is of Pinnacle ALPA or our pilot group. The bottom line is you got bought out, so get ready to get ALPA on your property ASAP if you guys know what's best for you.

 

[PCL_128]

This is the sort of thing that I was referring to when I wrote about 9E sabotaging the 9L vote. As an organizing committee member I was constantly defending the shyte that was being posted by PCL128, Flyer1015, Dointime, etc. about what would happen if CJC didn't vite in ALPA. You three are personally responsible for planting doubt in those 4 guys. The best thing you could do this year is shut your holes.

You were an OC member? Great. I probably met you then. I was at almost every event on the east coast, and many of the events in IAH. Which events did you attend? Since no one ever said anything to me about "sabotaging" the campaign (quite the opposite in fact, since the OC was thrilled to have a member of the MEC there to support them), I assume that you didn't attend any events and talk to me about your concerns. In all of the events that I attended, and the hundreds of questions I answered, I also never had a single CJC pilot express a concern about something said by anyone on FI. In other words, I think you're statement is bogus.

 

[suupah]

Doesn't matter what people at Colgan want to do or not do with Pinnacle ALPA or the pilot group. Why? Because the bottom line, THEY got BOUGHT out by OUR holding company (which was a bullsh*t thing to begin with, Pinnacle Corp was formed SOLELY to bypass our scope clauses. We are Pinnacle Inc.) That's horsesh*t!

"Brothers in aviation" sentiment is still here, and the brothers are telling every Colgan pilot to vote in ALPA. NOW!

It doesn't matter what Colgan wants or doesn't want. It doesn't matter what your opinion is of Pinnacle ALPA or our pilot group. The bottom line is you got bought out, so get ready to get ALPA on your property ASAP if you guys know what's best for you.

you, are a fricken tool, you work for pncl and have no claim to what they do with their earnings. Nor do you have any claim to what CJC pilots decide.

So on behalf of all cjc pilots let me be the first to say:
Flyer1015 you can kiss my a$$ and lick my brajul you friggin bukyak.

everytime you see a colgan pilot he is personally saying this to you but all you hear is "hi"

 

[suupah]

You were an OC member? Great. I probably met you then. I was at almost every event on the east coast, and many of the events in IAH. Which events did you attend? Since no one ever said anything to me about "sabotaging" the campaign (quite the opposite in fact, since the OC was thrilled to have a member of the MEC there to support them), I assume that you didn't attend any events and talk to me about your concerns. In all of the events that I attended, and the hundreds of questions I answered, I also never had a single CJC pilot express a concern about something said by anyone on FI. In other words, I think you're statement is bogus.

I am also on the OC and very well in tune with the pilot group here and I am telling you, you guys need to reign in the mouths of many of your pilots because they are the reason many at CJC want NOTHING to do with pncl ALPA. Like it or not, it is the truth.

 

[PCL_128]

I am also on the OC and very well in tune with the pilot group here and I am telling you, you guys need to reign in the mouths of many of your pilots because they are the reason many at CJC want NOTHING to do with pncl ALPA. Like it or not, it is the truth.

I agree, but I personally have been quite consistent over the past two years, including the time I was on the MEC, in telling the CJC pilots that I support a DOH or ratio'd merger and only want what is fair for both pilot groups. I've never "threatened" the CJC pilots with anything. I believe the PCL MEC is going out of their way to be fair to the CJC pilots.

 

[Flyer1015]

you, are a fricken tool, you work for pncl and have no claim to what they do with their earnings. Nor do you have any claim to what CJC pilots decide.

Do you work at Pinnacle, seriously? "Have no claim to what they do with their earnings."

That's OUR earnings, earned off OUR backs.

Those Q400s for Colgan were bought using the convertible note earned from NWA, again, money EARNED OFF OUR HARD WORKING BACKS!

And this is AFTER they cought a money-losing airline for $20 million, and then awarded them new aircraft using the convertible note, again, earned from the hardworking Pinnacle pilots.

Money used to grow ANOTHER airline (Colgan).

Then, the company has the BALLS to tell us that our MEC contract proposal WILL BANKRUPT THE COMPANY!



I will not stand for that type of horsesh*t! And neither should you, if you work at Pinnacle.

So on behalf of all cjc pilots let me be the first to say:
Flyer1015 you can kiss my a$$ and lick my brajul you friggin bukyak.

everytime you see a colgan pilot he is personally saying this to you but all you hear is "hi"

I don't know any Colgan pilots. You can kiss a$$ all day long, apparently you already do considering you believe management's lies.

 

[Fozzy]

There is not a single Net Jets pilot who is complaining about their net jets contract. Have you read their contract? How could they complain about it?! They left the teamsters for personal reasons - they were large enough to support themselves and not pay the IBT National and take the burden on themselves. I don't think that's an option for little Colgan's pilot group.

Can't believe that I am wading into this.
IBT sucks. They did absolutely NOTHING for the NJA pilot group. The 2005 CBA came about by the hard work, "ice in our veins" mentality of the PILOTS. The teamsters brought NOTHING to the table. They actually endorsed the
uke:2004 "POS" TA that was voted down by ~95%. Did you folks hear that? The TA endorsed by the IBT, Airline Division and Local 284 (truck driver local we belonged to before 1108) was defeated by the NJA pilots by ~95%. They thought it was a great contract, we figured we would rather STFD and work at Walmart. The pilots got the 2005 CBA. The pilots got the IBB (Interest based bargaining) turned CBA 2007. The IBT knew nothing of this until it was all wrapped up. Sorry, please do not use the NJA CBA's as a reason to stay/go with IBT.
ALPA, or in-house if you can swing it. IBT knows nothing of pilots. The Airline division is just a name on a door of an empty office, nothing else.

Good luck.

 

[Afraid to Fly]

Everyone needs to relax, get laid tonight, then continue the thread on Monday.

 

[suupah]

I don't know any Colgan pilots. You can kiss a$$ all day long, apparently you already do considering you believe management's lies.

You don't know a thing about me and what I believe.

But I am in the middle of this right now and I am telling you that we need you guys to clip the lip. You are sabotaging this entire process with your careless comments just like last year.

 

[Turtlesfly]

You don't know a thing about me and what I believe.

But I am in the middle of this right now and I am telling you that we need you guys to clip the lip. You are sabotaging this entire process with your careless comments just like last year.

Flyer1015 is right as verified by the JUDGE. That is, your company was bought and grown by PCL's hard work. You got bought - you don't have any say without representation. If you're counting on the senior PCL's pilots to just be nice and integrate you out of the goodness of their hearts when you're not ALPA . . . .

 

[suupah]

Flyer1015 is right as verified by the JUDGE. That is, your company was bought and grown by PCL's hard work. You got bought - you don't have any say without representation. If you're counting on the senior PCL's pilots to just be nice and integrate you out of the goodness of their hearts when you're not ALPA . . . .

You missed the point. If you truly want CJC to become ALPA then you could greatly help the cause by not spreading this kind of rhetoric. like it or not, this is hurting the cause. If you don't care then spread away.

 

[better up here]

suupah is right. as stupid as these anonymous chat line sewing circles are, all the bad vibe that a few PCL posters put up does cause many cjc'ers to turn his/her nose up at you. and alpa.

we didn't want to be bought, and we didn't want your hard earned money for a few new planes. go be angry at your management, and tell your side of the alpa story with a little more tact.

 

[DoinTime]

we didn't want to be bought, and we didn't want your hard earned money for a few new planes. go be angry at your management, and tell your side of the alpa story with a little more tact.

True words. To be fair though I've witnessed Colgan pilots on this board often take comments from Pinnacle pilots about Colgan personally. I have never met a Pinnacle pilot who has a single grip about a Colgan pilot. You will find nearly unanimous animosity over our management's purchase of Colgan though.

If you think you have a bunch of pissed of pilots at Colgan complaining that you were bought by us, then go ahead and multiply that number by three and you'll know what its like over here.

 

[Flyer1015]

Ok, ok, I'm sorry.


But I will truly laugh if the Colgan group turns down ALPA for the second time...........

Hopefully you boys now know better.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You missed the point. If you truly want CJC to become ALPA then you could greatly help the cause by not spreading this kind of rhetoric. like it or not, this is hurting the cause. If you don't care then spread away.

I think you are missing the point...

The 9E pilots want CJC to be ALPA for everyone's interests. But if Colgan pilots reject ALPA....again... then the 9e pilots will protect themselves...

The problem is the colgan pilots will cry foul as they feel pain and the blame game and divide and conquer begins...

The 9E pilots know this... call it friendly advice... the CJC pilots can choose their own path... just ensure the CJC pilots accept responsibility for thier choices...