Question Avionics Circuit Breaker Switch Fail

[lrobichaux]

2024 NXCub with IFR panel. This past weekend after a 45 min flight in pretty warm weather, avionics circuit breaker switch failed to engage after starting back up to head home. Tried resetting breakers but no joy. On the short flight back to my home field everything driven off the avionics switch was inop, including all comms, transponder, and ADS-B. After plane cooled off overnight, switch worked. We’ve concluded that the CB switch is weak and needs replacing. Let me know if you have any thoughts on that, but it’s not my main question.

After noticing just how many key systems go offline with an avionics switch failure, I became concerned that this is a major risk area. Both comms failed. Transponder failed. ADS-B in and out failed. I understand that most Garmin LRUs can accept multiple power sources, and I further understand that the IBBS can be connected to more than one device. As delivered from CC, the IBBS only drives the G3X and no other LRUs. Has anyone researched connecting the IBBS to additional key systems? I realize that this will theoretically drain the IBBS faster in an actual failure, but frankly the loss of all comms is a major concern. Alternatively, does any know any reason that a second IBBS cannot be installed?

 

[Neal]

Wow, now I wonder if I need to consider breakers in my spares kit. I think I may review the sizes and order a few different sizes. Again, being in the backcountry or a cross-country and having a failure like this could strand you. My mobile snap-on tools cub to the rescue

Sorry to hear you had this. Having the IBBS power more sure seems like a nice idea. First, I hope the failure wasn't caused by something as that's typically why breakers pop as we all know. But replacing it is an easy initial triage from a non A&P opinion. Maybe reach out to CC (Pete) and get his opinion but I think you're on the right path.

Another reason I choose not to fly my cub IMC. Too much experimentaling going on here.

 

[Neal]

Okay, so it wasn't a breaker but a switch? I didn't see an AV breaker on my panel in reviewing breaker sizes for spares. Also remove the GDU (G3X) and check the security of all screws going into breakers/switches and all spade connections that you can access. I wire terminal came off of my IBBS breaker that took me 6 months to find the cause of the IBBS alert on my G3X as the screw backed out. I finally found a wire dangling behind the panel. A screw dropped and I found it on the floorboard months prior which I saved but never knew where it came from.

 

[lrobichaux]

Okay, so it wasn't a breaker but a switch? I didn't see an AV breaker on my panel in reviewing breaker sizes for spares. Also remove the GDU (G3X) and check the security of all screws going into breakers/switches and all spade connections that you can access. I wire terminal came off of my IBBS breaker that took me 6 months to find the cause of the IBBS alert on my G3X as the screw backed out. I finally found a wire dangling behind the panel. A screw dropped and I found it on the floorboard months prior which I saved but never knew where it came from.

Correct. The failure was the avionics switch which has an integrated 10A circuit breaker. Great suggestion to check the terminal connections behind the panel. I also think it would be a great idea to buy some spare breakers and CB switches. Would you mind sharing your list of what you intend to order? But the bottom line is that I've got to figure out some modifications to provide some redundancy for the critical systems that went offline when the avionics switch failed (i.e., single point of failure).

 

[Neal]

Right now I have a few breakers in my cart from the link below. I have some spares in the hangar I have to check first as I did some upgrades that required some breaker upsizing so I have to see what I have. I wonder how often these fail though. Your issue may just be the usual crimp or spade issue we all suffer in these planes. I had a wingtip nav light quit working, it was a crimp problem.

[Incorrect link removed]

 

[lrobichaux]

Right now I have a few breakers in my cart from the link below. I have some spares in the hangar I have to check first as I did some upgrades that required some breaker upsizing so I have to see what I have. I wonder how often these fail though. Your issue may just be the usual crimp or spade issue we all suffer in these planes. I had a wingtip nav light quit working, it was a crimp problem.

Thanks! I'll report back after I check the connections later in the week.

 

[lrobichaux]

Right now I have a few breakers in my cart from the link below. I have some spares in the hangar I have to check first as I did some upgrades that required some breaker upsizing so I have to see what I have. I wonder how often these fail though. Your issue may just be the usual crimp or spade issue we all suffer in these planes. I had a wingtip nav light quit working, it was a crimp problem.

One other question. How do you access the area behind the panel? Is it only accessible by removing the G3X and the other panel mounted units? Or can you also remove the glare shield and access from above?

 

[Neal]

One other question. How do you access the area behind the panel? Is it only accessible by removing the G3X and the other panel mounted units? Or can you also remove the glare shield and access from above?

All I know of is removing the GDU (G3X display). You can see most from there and underneath after some yoga stretching You could use a mirror to inspect as well. The row of switches at the top can all be easily inspected with the GDU removed.

 

[Neal]

A few thoughts came to mind:

1) Is your AMP reading on the G3X showing positive after engine start? If not, you may have a bad alternator
2) Take out the G3X data card and review it on the day of the incident. You can upload the data to FlySto or send the contents to [email protected] and Pete may be able to review it and see if anything of interest is logged such as volt or amp issues.

 

[lrobichaux]

A few thoughts came to mind:

1) Is your AMP reading on the G3X showing positive after engine start? If not, you may have a bad alternator
2) Take out the G3X data card and review it on the day of the incident. You can upload the data to FlySto or send the contents to [email protected] and Pete may be able to review it and see if anything of interest is logged such as volt or amp issues.

Thanks Neal. Upon restart after the failure was noted, the charging system was normal ... so no issue there. I've connected with Pete and based on description of the issue, he's sending me a new avionics CB switch. Pete said that those switches rarely fail, but it's possible. His comment, combined with your experience of seeing lose wiring connections in the past, has me wondering what I' gonna find once I remove the GDU and examine the switches. I'm kinda hoping that there's a loose connection, which would explain the overheating / failure. Nonetheless, it's highlighted for me the need to have a small stash of spare CBs and switches which are fairly inexpensive. It's also highlighted for me the need to design some redundancy into the system by upgrading the IBBS battery capacity and connecting it to the remote com unit and the GPS. I'm gonna work on that and will post an update in a separate thread. Should be interesting.

 

[Neal]

Do you have a G5 on your panel?

 

[lrobichaux]

Affirm. I have the standard CubCrafters IFR panel. G3X, G5, GNC 355, remote comm, remote transponder, autopilot with panel mounted GMC 305.

 

[Neal]

When you receive your replacement switch can you provide pictures of it? I'd like to try and get the brand used so I can maybe order a spare.

 

[Neal]

The breaker sizes in my cub are listed below. I'm excluding the stall horn (1 amp) which is pulled.

2, 3, 5, 7.5, 10, 20, 50

Expensive but will carry in my spares.

 

[lrobichaux]

When you receive your replacement switch can you provide pictures of it? I'd like to try and get the brand used so I can maybe order a spare.

Wilco. Probably next 2 - 3 days.

 

[Neal]

The link I provided in post #5 to aircraft spruce is the wrong product. We use the mini breakers, they are larger size breakers. I removed the link. I believe the correct breakers from Aircraft Spruce are the 2TC2 series. I requested a quote from CubCrafters parts and will likely order from them to ensure I receive the correct breakers for my spares kit.

 

[lrobichaux]

The link I provided in post #5 to aircraft spruce is the wrong product. We use the mini breakers, they are larger size breakers. I removed the link. I believe the correct breakers from Aircraft Spruce are the 2TC2 series. I requested a quote from CubCrafters parts and will likely order from them to ensure I receive the correct breakers for my spares kit.

Thanks Neal. Have you had may straight-up CB failures that requires a replacement? As a follow-up from my original post, I received a replacement 10A CB switch from CubCrafters, installed it and everything is working great so far. As requested, here is the part / part#. I plan to carry a spare in the plane just in case.

 

[Neal]

Glad to hear you're fixed up. I have not had a CB failure. I bet the risk is extremely low. I just don't want to find myself in the backcountry needing something and I'm stranded.

 

[Neal]

Here's a link to that switch on Aircraft Spruce if needed as well:

Tyco Circuit Breaker W31 Series | Aircraft Spruce ®

Tyco Circuit Breaker W31 Series These bi-metallic single pole breakers weigh less than 2 oz. and are especially suitable for homebuilt aircraft. Used as original equipment in Beech, Cessna and Piper aircraft.

www.aircraftspruce.com

 

[Neal]

So I asked myself, why do I care spares like this when such a low risk of failure??? With your typical GA flying you typically land at airports, airports have maintenance shops, cars, hotels nearby, etc. With backcountry flying we go to remote grass strips where my fear is being stranded, not able to get parts with ease, etc. It's possible, get a ride to the nearby town, get a hotel, order parts, hope you can fix it. The times I had my coil pack failures I was going to be at very remote grass strips, for Virginia at least. While it may add a half pound or pound (1-2 coil packs is probably a pound) I would just rather have parts on hand that I can have available, or someone else if needed. For example (again) I'm hoping to go to the Cheat River Island fly-in next week. It's a remote island grass strip setup in WV (West Virginia). Lot's of planes, etc. Someone could have a failure, or I could, and maybe I can help. Yes, I announce on the radio "Carbon Cub Heavy on 5 mile straight-in.."

 

[Neal]

I ordered spare push pull breakers from CubCrafters. Price was reasonable. The 50A breaker is $315!!! So that's a no for me for the spares kit.

 

[Neal]

I realize I probably missed the ignition breakers on the front of the seat which I believe are 40A's? Doubt I'll get anymore, have what I have for now.

 

[Neal]

I was wrong, the ignition breakers forward of the seat are 5A.

Opened my package from CubCrafters and the packaging for breakers is all aircraft spruce so just buy direct from them.

 

[belchfire]

Many years ago a friend of mine blasted off out of KBFI in a rented Mooney 201 into the overcast. After getting radar contact with departure and a getting on course the entire radio stack died…in actual IFR conditions-the master CB Switch had tripped.

After extracting a bunch of seat cushion from his nether regions and a few unsuccessful reset attempts all of the radios were turned off and the avionics master successfully reset with no load. In a trial and error method radios were turned back on and it was determined that one nav/com with no GS receiver would not trip the master-anything more and Still, no xpnder, no DME, no ADF (it was a while back!), no second nav/com and no precision approach capability!

After re-establishing contact with SEA and declaring my friend got vectored around and pointed back to BFI which fortunately wasn’t that bad-about a thousand and 2 or so and he got back in okay on a localizer approach.

In an effort to learn from the experience of others, when I set up an IFR panel back in the day I had two Master Avionics switches installed in parallel. In order to ensure continued redundancy I would use one on odd numbered days and the other on even number days.

There is little enough redundancy in a single engined airplane and to expose yourself to a single point failure of that kind is an easy fix with almost no cost in weight.

 

[Cactus Charlie]

I understand that most Garmin LRUs can accept multiple power sources, and I further understand that the IBBS can be connected to more than one device.

While some Garmin LRU have 2 independent power inputs I doubt it is true that "most" Garmin LRU have two independent power inputs. GPS 175 (and family) do not, GTX 345R does not, GAD 29 does not, GMC 305 does not, GSA 28 servos do not, G5 does not (but does have independent battery backup option).

In the CC Exec Glass aircraft IBBS powers GDU 465, GSU 25C (feeds GMU 22), and GEA 24. A good IBBS battery will power these for 2 hours or more. Adding loads would reduce that but, if load does not have independent power inputs, additional power switching would be required.

The standard Exec Glass Avionics switch breaker is 10 A and I suspect it is barely adequate. Very surprised that CC did not increase the rating for the IFR fit.

Does the Avionics switch need to be a breaker type? Each avionics LRU has its own CB.

If you are concerned about loss of everything on the Avionics bus then consider two independent Avionics switches. How would you decide which LRU to put on Avionics-1 and which on Avionics-2. You have likely have only one audio panel, one transponder, and one IFR GPS.

I don't have the audio panel in my IFR capable FX-3. I could rig an alternate power source for the GTR 200 but it's not high on the list of priorities.

 

[Cactus Charlie]

The standard Exec Glass Avionics switch breaker is 10 A and I suspect it is barely adequate. Very surprised that CC did not increase the rating for the IFR fit.

CC G3X Schematic shows the Avionics switch breaker as 10 A.

CC schematic -103 CC11-160 POWER DISTRIBUTION AND START CIRCUIT shows a 20 A Avionics switch breaker. This schematic is listed as applicable to the FX-3.

The equivalent schematic in the maintenance manual template is of too low a resolution for the CB rating to be read clearly but I think it is 20 A.

 

[lrobichaux]

Many years ago a friend of mine blasted off out of KBFI in a rented Mooney 201 into the overcast. After getting radar contact with departure and a getting on course the entire radio stack died…in actual IFR conditions-the master CB Switch had tripped.

After extracting a bunch of seat cushion from his nether regions and a few unsuccessful reset attempts all of the radios were turned off and the avionics master successfully reset with no load. In a trial and error method radios were turned back on and it was determined that one nav/com with no GS receiver would not trip the master-anything more and Still, no xpnder, no DME, no ADF (it was a while back!), no second nav/com and no precision approach capability!

After re-establishing contact with SEA and declaring my friend got vectored around and pointed back to BFI which fortunately wasn’t that bad-about a thousand and 2 or so and he got back in okay on a localizer approach.

In an effort to learn from the experience of others, when I set up an IFR panel back in the day I had two Master Avionics switches installed in parallel. In order to ensure continued redundancy I would use one on odd numbered days and the other on even number days.

There is little enough redundancy in a single engined airplane and to expose yourself to a single point failure of that kind is an easy fix with almost no cost in weight.

Very good information, thank you. This is exactly the reason why I'm not going put up with this being a single point of failure.

 

[Cactus Charlie]

This is exactly the reason why I'm not going put up with this being a single point of failure.

Everything that is on the Avionics bus will go away if the Avionics switch fails, or if the master contactor or its wiring fails, or if the Master switch fails. The Avionics bus will likely be shed if the alternator fails so that battery capacity is retained to keep the engine running.

Eliminating single point failure of the Avionics bus powered equipment requires more thought than just considering the Avionics switch.

If Avionics power fails, or if all Master power fails, I still have GDU PFD and ND and a G5 as backup. What I'll likely miss most is COM and secondly the Autopilot.

If/when I install my GTR 20 remote COM I may consider putting my GTR 200 on a different power source or add switching to manually select an alternate power source.

I have also been considering manual RS-232 bus switching so the G5 and GMC can give me AP after the GDU fails.

Failure of the GDU 465 may be far more debilitating than loss of the Avionics bus.

 

[lrobichaux]

@Cactus Charlie thank you for the opportunity to bounce this around with you! Would appreciate your thoughts on the following:

1) GDU 465 failure would indeed be majorly problematic. However, with my panel, the GDU 465 is powered by the IBBS if the Master fails. I suppose there's a risk that the GDU itself fails leaving me with the G5 only, but not sure there's much I can do about that.

2) How is the G3X's internal GPS (not IFR certified) powered? If Master loses power, will the internal GPS work via the GDU 465 being powered through IBBS?

3) I spoke to an avionics tech yesterday and he also concluded that a 10A avionics CB switch is marginally inadequate. He also observed that all avionics units are protected with their own dedicated circuit breakers. He suggested moving up to 20A CB avionics switch, or even converting to a standard switch. What's your view between those two options?

4) What would be involved in installing an additional independent avionics switch in parallel with the current switch? My current panel does not have a blank, unused space for an additional switch. Can an additional switch basically be added wherever I can find space?

5) If a second Avionics switch was installed, in your opinion would this be sufficient redundancy to then not worry about further redundancy such as additional IBBS connections?

6) As I think about what minimum IFR equipment I would really not want to lose in IMC, it's the GDU 465, the GNC 355 (which gives me one radio) and the GMA 245R audio panel. This would mean losing the second radio and the transponder - which wouldn't be great but doable. The GDU 465 is already connected to the IBBS. You mentioned above that the GNC 355 and GTX 345R cannot accept an IBBS backup power source. Can the GTR 20 and the GMA 245R accept IBBS back up power? If answer is no, is there any other creative solution for powering LRUs that were not built to accept IBBS backup power if the avionics bus is deenergized?

 

[Cactus Charlie]

1) GDU 465 could fail because of a hardware fault or because of a software defect. I heard of one Garmin update that caused continuous GDU reset under a specific set of conditions. I don't have any detail but it was probably over 5 years ago.

2) Everything, including the internal VFR GPS, works when GDU is powered by IBBS. The two power sources are "diode or'd" which means the higher voltage is used. IBBS outputs are not enabled unless IBBS input voltage is lost.

3) I ran a quick test yesterday and the avionics current draw was about 5 A with GTR 200 transmitting but not modulated. AP was not engaged so servo load not included. I don't have the remote audio panel. Always remember that circuit breakers are sized to protect the wiring not to protect the powered equipment. The Avionics switch breaker protects the link from MAIN Bus to the Avionics switch. That link is wire MB11A12R which should be 12 AWG. If the Avionics switch /breaker was replaced by a plain switch then a short at the Avionics bus bar would likely blow the Main bus 40 A fuse if the link didn't burn out first. I have not done any analysis of all the possible failure modes of the electrical system and won't make any recommendation on changes to it.

4/5) If you are really concerned about Avionics switch/breaker failure you could wire a second one in parallel. There are more critical single point failures in a Carbon Cub than the Avionics switch/breaker.

6) The GTR 20 is the same radio as the GTR 200 except that panel is not present. It does not have redundant power inputs. I have not looked at the audio panel. Redundant power can be provided to any LRU by using two external diodes, one in series with each power source. The GTR 20 is not the radio that should have redundant power. It can't be controlled if the GDU 465 fails. I don't know if the remote audio panel provides a direct pass through if it is unpowered. You would need to research whether it does "pass through" and, if so, which COM radio is still usable when the audio panel is not powered. I would hope it is designed to "pass through" COM 1 and that redundant power on the GNC 355 would be the right choice.

For lost COM in VMC or IMC there is always the possibility of Bluetooth from phone direct to headset if batteries are fitted or available to be fitted.

This is all "off the cuff" and just to keep a conversation going.