Should we prepare to be stapled?

[el raton]

Integration should be a fair process. "Fair" can be subjective though. You can ask Flops leadership at the 1108 and they'll assure you that integration will be a "fair" process. Yet you talk to any line pilot at Flops and they'll tell you they're going to push for integration by "DOH" as they feel "that's the "most fair process".

DOH essentially staples ~200 Flex pilots to the bottom of the SL. Sure there will be fences but as seats disappear these pilots wil be moved to the aircraft their seniority will hold. This also could mean downgrades for some. Not a good thing for Flex pilots.

I know this process is negotiated by both sides. I also know Flex will never agree to (in negotiations) to integration by DOH which means the process will go to arbitration. That will, most likely, screw the Flex pilots. The arbitrator will eventually ask the IBT what's their internal policy on SLI. The Ibt states that they have no internal policy for integration. However, when asked by an arbitrator what process they want the Ibt will most likely side with Flops wishes.

It really does feel like Flex pilots are being told by flops to "trust us! We assure you integration will be fair." in an effort to get our votes. Or, "being stapled is better than having no contract when working for Ricci", although that one is my favorite.


I and most at Flex (not all) are asking Flops pilots to seriosly consider integration by percentage of seniority. It's the most fair process as no one gains and no one loses. You end up right where you were. Let's start off on good footing with each other. This will also gain the IBT more votes. So please if you see a Flex pilot, please assure them you feel the same way if you agree. Thanks!

 

[Praetorian]

Integration should be a fair process. "Fair" can be subjective though. You can ask Flops leadership at the 1108 and they'll assure you that integration will be a "fair" process. Yet you talk to any line pilot at Flops and they'll tell you they're going to push for integration by "DOH" as they feel "that's the "most fair process".

DOH essentially staples ~200 Flex pilots to the bottom of the SL. Sure there will be fences but as seats disappear these pilots wil be moved to the aircraft their seniority will hold. This also could mean downgrades for some. Not a good thing for Flex pilots.

I know this process is negotiated by both sides. I also know Flex will never agree to (in negotiations) to integration by DOH which means the process will go to arbitration. That will, most likely, screw the Flex pilots. The arbitrator will eventually ask the IBT what's their internal policy on SLI. The Ibt states that they have no internal policy for integration. However, when asked by an arbitrator what process they want the Ibt will most likely side with Flops wishes.

It really does feel like Flex pilots are being told by flops to "trust us! We assure you integration will be fair." in an effort to get our votes. Or, "being stapled is better than having no contract when working for Ricci", although that one is my favorite.


I and most at Flex (not all) are asking Flops pilots to seriosly consider integration by percentage of seniority. It's the most fair process as no one gains and no one loses. You end up right where you were. Let's start off on good footing with each other. This will also gain the IBT more votes. So please if you see a Flex pilot, please assure them you feel the same way if you agree. Thanks!

If you're right and date of hire, "essentially staples ~200 Flex pilots to the bottom of the SL" then that method would not be "fair and equitable" as required by the McCaskill/Bond act. That would make that method illegal.

Besides, as it stands right now under Red Label, the seniority you think you have is worthless. It's an illusion.

Relax, know one's out to screw you. We know we will all have to live together, maybe for the rest of our careers, after the dust settles on all of this. Ultimately we will need solidarity to get what we want in a combined CBA. How would screwing you guys right out of the gate help us with that?

Don't believe managements FUD.

 

[dime line]

As a Flops guy, I will not vote to screw the Flex Guys.

 

[doh]

Integration should be a fair process. "Fair" can be subjective though. You can ask Flops leadership at the 1108 and they'll assure you that integration will be a "fair" process. Yet you talk to any line pilot at Flops and they'll tell you they're going to push for integration by "DOH" as they feel "that's the "most fair process".

DOH essentially staples ~200 Flex pilots to the bottom of the SL. Sure there will be fences but as seats disappear these pilots wil be moved to the aircraft their seniority will hold. This also could mean downgrades foryy some. Not a good thing for Flex pilots.

I know this process is negotiated by both sides. I also know Flex will never agree to (in negotiations) to integration by DOH which means the process will go to arbitration. That will, most likely, screw the Flex pilots. The arbitrator will eventually ask the IBT what's their internal policy on SLI. The Ibt states that they have no internal policy for integration. However, when asked by an arbitrator what process they want the Ibt will most likely side with Flops wishes.

It really does feel like Flex pilots are being told by flops to "trust us! We assure you integration will be fair." in an effort to get our votes. Or, "being stapled is better than having no contract when working for Ricci", although that one is my favorite.


I and most at Flex (not all) are asking Flops pilots to seriosly consider integration by percentage of seniority. It's the most fair process as no one gains and no one loses. You end up right where you were. Let's start off on good footing with each other. This will also gain the IBT more votes. So please if you see a Flex pilot, please assure them you feel the same way if you agree. Thanks!

Right now the merger committee at Flex is looking at the various ways to integrate lists. They are looking for the method that has the most positive outcome for the most pilots. Just breathe people. If Flops pushes for something that screws Flex, this will go to arbitration. If Flex try's to push something that screws Flops, this will go to arbitration. It ain't gonna happen. The only people with an integration agenda that is shady? Management.

 

[993_Pilot]

...I and most at Flex (not all) are asking Flops pilots to seriosly consider integration by percentage of seniority. It's the most fair process as no one gains and no one loses. You end up right where you were. Let's start off on good footing with each other...

Ricci gave DOH credit for some pilots as their original start date with Corporate Wings, Miller Aviation, or some other company he bought. He also gave credit for the time worked as rampers/fuelers/office workers/etc., where Travel Air only gave you credit from when you started as a pilot at Travel Air. I am not on the SLI committee so I have no say, but eventually, relative seniority is how it ended up in the TA/FLOPs merger after Ricci was booted out. If DOH were to be the way for SLI with Flex, it would screw up the current FLOPs seniority, so for what it's worth, I am with you and support relative seniority, or longevity as opposed to straight DOH.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Don't sweat it el. DOH would put several Flex pilots ahead of the most senior Options pilot, so that wouldn't be fair OR equitable. As the single carrier election moves closer, expect more FUD to be slung your way. The Options pilots aren't out to screw anyone, so don't fall for it. GC

 

[el raton]

If you're right and date of hire, "essentially staples ~200 Flex pilots to the bottom of the SL" then that method would not be "fair and equitable" as required by the McCaskill/Bond act. That would make that method illegal.

Besides, as it stands right now under Red Label, the seniority you think you have is worthless. It's an illusion.

Relax, know one's out to screw you. We know we will all have to live together, maybe for the rest of our careers, after the dust settles on all of this. Ultimately we will need solidarity to get what we want in a combined CBA. How would screwing you guys right out of the gate help us with that?

Don't believe managements FUD.

If we get screwed remember this....



I'm not getting your coffee!

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

el, we lived thru it so stand clear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C81p_oRmlyc

They have tied to hit me with it, but once I heard them "talking", I moved away.

 

[warlord19]

If you look real close, you can see the letters IBT tatooed on the rhino's ass....that's cool.
Cheers

 

[Helmsalee]

Having been through 2 seniority list integrations, I feel qualified to comment. The first thing that will happen is that both parties will sit down and try to agree on the methodology. This is the best route but is rare. I hope you guys will be the exception. If that fails, then you go to an arbitrator and they are, well, arbitrary. The thing that makes an SLI difficult is expectations. Every pilot on both sides has expectations of how he/she thinks their career should progress. The problem is that there are not enough good things available to meet everyone's expectations. When the results were announced in my case, I was pissed. Both times. So were guys on the other side. What it comes down to is, that if both sides are equally pissed, it probably was fair. Keep in mind that what seems fair to you may not seem so fair to someone else.
Helm

 

[warlord19]

Helm, your post is probably the most accurate description of what will happen that I've seen. Flex Pilots should buy some KY, however, since we are the ones that have been acquired and so will be treated more like 2nd class citizens than if we had been the acquiring company....just human nature.
Cheers

 

[Praetorian]

Helm, your post is probably the most accurate description of what will happen that I've seen. Flex Pilots should buy some KY, however, since we are the ones that have been acquired and so will be treated more like 2nd class citizens than if we had been the acquiring company....just human nature.
Cheers

Riiiiggt. You're starting to remind us of this guy:

http://youtu.be/pkYNBwCEeH4

 

[luckydog]

DAC bought Flight Options, DAC bought Flexjet....

We're both under the One Sky.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Helm, your post is probably the most accurate description of what will happen that I've seen. Flex Pilots should buy some KY, however, since we are the ones that have been acquired and so will be treated more like 2nd class citizens than if we had been the acquiring company....just human nature.
Cheers

WL, Do you really think you can scare the Flex pilots? They will stand up and take control of their destiny with their SLI participation. Sorry WL, but it must really be getting to you when you can see your control over the Flex pilots slipping away. Our local 1108 did not let that happen to the Citation Air pilots. Were their jobs going away anyway? Yes, but the FO pilots wouldn't agree to let them be stapled either.

 

[OldCrow]

Old Crow

Very good, WarLord19...deja vu, seems like: well, you know the deal.
You ARE NOT a line Pilot with either carrier, BUTT even if you were, you would be such a small infected piece of flesh on our, you figure it out.
The Pilots, that is, a Union of Pilots from both groups will figure it out with each best interest forward. Even though FLOPs are the biological children, FLEX are the "luxury" brand: not my words. Just saying, NO ones got a leg up in this game, for dirt grubbing parasites like you.

 

[slowtation capt]

Helm, your post is probably the most accurate description of what will happen that I've seen. Flex Pilots should buy some KY, however, since we are the ones that have been acquired and so will be treated more like 2nd class citizens than if we had been the acquiring company....just human nature.
Cheers

The KY is for the f#@cking that you give to your own pilots, you are no self proclaimed champion of your pilots, you are a back stabbing lying piece of dirt.

 

[993_Pilot]

Warlord is grasping at straws and hoping that by some miracle the 1108 will not be voted as the bargaining agent after the single carrier determination. Once that happens (and it will), Warlord's days are numbered, because KR will have no use for him and he knows it.

 

[warlord19]

Not trying to scare anyone….your side has done that very well…it’s what the IBT DOES in union drives…that, and attempting to demonize owners, management, and any else who questions their motives and methods…..most reasonable folks recognize this fact and is why union membership is declining so rapidly. I was just pointing out what would probably happen (if)when the IBT is voted in.

But don’t get me wrong…your uncle has brought this situation on himself because he seems to be tone-deaf to the politics of union-drives. To not pay the bonus that was part of our employment agreement was idiotic, and the outcome of the “hostage” situation
(which was almost pre-ordained with the type of judges occupying that particular court)has more-or-less sealed the deal for the IBT, as best as I can judge from talking with fellow pilots.

I just want to point out to my forth-coming “brothers” that vote yes, that they are making a deal with the devil, with ole Cap’n Crunch being the head dude. You geniuses who believe life will be all roses after(if) you start paying millions of dollars to the Cap’n and his merry band of shake-down thugs(in suits) are living in la-la land.
Cheers

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by warlord19
Not trying to scare anyone?.your side has done that very well?it?s what the IBT DOES in union drives?that, and attempting to demonize owners, management, and any else who questions their motives and methods?..most reasonable folks recognize this fact and is why union membership is declining so rapidly. I was just pointing out what would probably happen (if)when the IBT is voted in.

And what do you call it when the company attacks its own employees?

But don?t get me wrong?your uncle has brought this situation on himself because he seems to be tone-deaf to the politics of union-drives. To not pay the bonus that was part of our employment agreement was idiotic, and the outcome of the ?hostage? situation
(which was almost pre-ordained with the type of judges occupying that particular court)has more-or-less sealed the deal for the IBT, as best as I can judge from talking with fellow pilots.

It's not the IBT-it's the pilots that work here.

I just want to point out to my forth-coming ?brothers? that vote yes, that they are making a deal with the devil, with ole Cap?n Crunch being the head dude. You geniuses who believe life will be all roses after(if) you start paying millions of dollars to the Cap?n and his merry band of shake-down thugs(in suits) are living in la-la land.

Any dealing with you isn't dealing with the devil? I'll gladly pay my dues just to keep thugs like you off of my back. Is life going to be all roses? No, it never is and never will be but it will still be better than unfettered tyranny under you and Uncle.

Cheers

Thanks, but I'll enjoy one with someone else.
GC

 

[slowtation capt]

But don?t get me wrong?your uncle has brought this situation on himself because he seems to be tone-deaf to the politics of union-drives. To not pay the bonus that was part of our employment agreement was idiotic, and the outcome of the ?hostage? situation
(which was almost pre-ordained with the type of judges occupying that particular court)has more-or-less sealed the deal for the IBT, as best as I can judge from talking with fellow pilots.
Cheers

"Let me ask you a question: why would you say that here when I?m pretty certain you wouldn?t dare say that to his face?"