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JT12345 said:
No. Absolutely not. Hell no.
I am relieved. Less disparity from low to high on the curve.
Click to expand...

Well if we can get ALPA on property, get a few more career protections, and a narrow body industry leading CBA I will feel better.
 
"Well if we can get ALPA on property, get a few more career protections, and a narrow body industry leading CBA I will feel better.[/QUOTE]"

Now the sarcasm. Then you will be told you are working your way up to a true "Professional Career" (at a major) and start taking concessionary contracts to "protect your future".

Way to go Sprit and Blue you did have raised the bar on your own.
 
Spirit will begin pushing the bar higher when negotiations start next year. No reason NK pilots will not attain an industry leading contract with the company making record profits while growing 20% annually. Stay tuned.
 
Raoul Duke said:
Why would you want ALPA on the property. I can't thnink of a worse way to achieve what you want.
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Oh ya. Do you currently work for an ALPA carrier. If so, answer me this one question. Would you drop ALPA and all union representation for your group to let your management and BOD make all your pay, work rule, and compensation decisions unilaterally. If you do work for an ALPA carrier have you gone through a merger lately. If so how would you have liked going through that merger with just your CEO negotiating the deal you as a pilot received post merger. Keeping in mind he has to legally do what is fiduciarily best for the share holders and not the pilots. How would you feel if your work rules changed at anytime randomly via an email from the company vs. a vote from your group and you couldn't do any thing about it. While no one at JB thinks ALPA is perfect I assure you not having any representation no longer works. An in house won't work because we don't have the funding and the company is very hostile towards representation. Ask FedEx how an in house works with a hostile management. The other option is the truckers union. So come work for a carrier with no representation whatsoever and then say that again.

So you tell me smart guy. What is the best way to achieve what we want, because asking management pretty please and doing a survey doesn't cut it anymore.

Btw some of the things I want.
Legal protection - ALPA gives me that day one
Aero Medical - ALPA gives me that day one
Merger Protection - ALPA gives me that day one
A seat at the negotiation table - ALPA gives me that the day my pilot group votes in an MEC.
Loss of medical insurance - ALPA gives me the ability to get that
So I see ALPA as a pretty good way to achieve what I want.
 
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Raoul Duke said:
Why would you want ALPA on the property. I can't thnink of a worse way to achieve what you want.
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ALPA had its usefulness in the past but really isn't the best option in today world. Any sizable pilot group is more than smart enough to set up its own independent union with more than enough dues to buy all the same resources that ALPA buys. ALPA is nothing more than an expensive middle man with competing interests.

ALPA is a thirsty camel at best and a thousand leaches at worst.
 
Raoul Duke said:
Why would you want ALPA on the property. I can't thnink of a worse way to achieve what you want.
Click to expand...


Maybe we can jump up and down and stomp our feet! I'm sure managment "gets it" "this time"... Good things to come, right around the corner... Free beer tomorrow! Don't forget the wide body order... Awsomeness can't be achieved with 3rd party representation! You can't talk to your chief pilot with a union...

That's why every other airline pilot group is voting out their unions for the direct relationship.
 
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Turtle21 said:
ALPA had its usefulness in the past but really isn't the best option in today world. Any sizable pilot group is more than smart enough to set up its own independent union with more than enough dues to buy all the same resources that ALPA buys. ALPA is nothing more than an expensive middle man with competing interests.

ALPA is a thirsty camel at best and a thousand leaches at worst.
Click to expand...

That post makes too much sense. You know this is FI right? :laugh:
 
$$$4nothin said:
Oh ya. Do you currently work for an ALPA carrier. If so, answer me this one question. Would you drop ALPA and all union representation for your group to let your management and BOD make all your pay, work rule, and compensation decisions unilaterally. If you do work for an ALPA carrier have you gone through a merger lately. If so how would you have liked going through that merger with just your CEO negotiating the deal you as a pilot received post merger. Keeping in mind he has to legally do what is fiduciarily best for the share holders and not the pilots. How would you feel if your work rules changed at anytime randomly via an email from the company vs. a vote from your group and you couldn't do any thing about it. While no one at JB thinks ALPA is perfect I assure you not having any representation no longer works. An in house won't work because we don't have the funding and the company is very hostile towards representation. Ask FedEx how an in house works with a hostile management. The other option is the truckers union. So come work for a carrier with no representation whatsoever and then say that again.

So you tell me smart guy. What is the best way to achieve what we want, because asking management pretty please and doing a survey doesn't cut it anymore.

Btw some of the things I want.
Legal protection - ALPA gives me that day one
Aero Medical - ALPA gives me that day one
Merger Protection - ALPA gives me that day one
A seat at the negotiation table - ALPA gives me that the day my pilot group votes in an MEC.
Loss of medical insurance - ALPA gives me the ability to get that
So I see ALPA as a pretty good way to achieve what I want.
Click to expand...



I currently work for an ALPA carrier - I am absolutely convinced that the "benefit" received from ALPA is substantially less than the amount of money we give to them. In essence we are subsidizing benefits to a number of regionals and paying for the substantial and overly generous overhead that comes with the organization and worst of all - political donations to politicians who I would never support.

I am convinced an in house organization would provide much better representation and I would know 100% of what I pay would benefit me - and we would have much better control of the purse strings.
 
Pointing out the truth now lables me a scab. Seriously - that is the best you can do to respond to points that you know to be true. At least be creative and tell me something positive, like ALPA has done a great deal for the advancement of mustache fashion or it has helped us learn where to have fancy dinners in and around Herndon. . . something???
 
Here are the facts:

1. Carriers like Delta, United and FedEx carry the expenses of regionals and cover a disproportional amount of overhead

2. The disproportional amount of overhead carried by these carriers is in an of itself excessive

3. ALPA spends our dues money on political candidates and causes that many pilots do not support.
 
Raoul Duke said:
I currently work for an ALPA carrier - I am absolutely convinced that the "benefit" received from ALPA is substantially less than the amount of money we give to them. In essence we are subsidizing benefits to a number of regionals and paying for the substantial and overly generous overhead that comes with the organization and worst of all - political donations to politicians who I would never support.

I am convinced an in house organization would provide much better representation and I would know 100% of what I pay would benefit me - and we would have much better control of the purse strings.
Click to expand...

I am "convinced" the money flows from legacy/FedEx to the regionals. Some regionals are more in the red than others. But they're all in the red.

ALPA is prohibited by federal law from making political donations. That's why there's a PAC. How can you not know this?

A regional with an in-house union. Hmm. Skywest seems to treat their employees well even though they have nothing more than a student council. But there is tremendous market pressure to keep the pay/benefits competitive with other regionals (thank-you collective bargaining.)

Can this be repeated at your ALPA carrier? Will your management be as enlightened? History shows this is not the case at most airlines -- let alone at regionals. Most MBA's see you as a cost that needs to be aggressively managed. Big gamble.
 
You are confusing getting a seat at the table and having our voice heard on capitol hill (lobbying) with supporting a candidate financially (PAC.)

How would you ensure your in-house union abides by your delicate political sensibilities?
 
$$$4nothin said:
...If you do work for an ALPA carrier have you gone through a merger lately. If so how would you have liked going through that merger with just your CEO negotiating the deal you as a pilot received post merger...

Merger Protection - ALPA gives me that day one...
Click to expand...

Everybody has to do what they see as best, but the merger protections with ALPA are questionable.

Examples:

USAir-America West...both ALPA, did binding arbitration, theoretically should have been rather straight forward...didn't work out well, "binding" wasn't binding and has never been implemented, USAir dumps ALPA.

AirTran...bought by non-ALPA carrier, AT ALPA reps under guidance of ALPA attorneys accepted the worst of the three seniority proposals offered. Pilots screwed out of a chance to vote on a nearly immediate 50% pay raise. Didn't work out well but ALPA keeps collecting AT dues. So, ALPA cost AT plenty.

I can understand the appeal of ALPA when you don't have it, but the realities are what they are. A former NWA guy told me they were happy with the DAL deal because they got a pay raise in return for seniority...oops, sounds familiar!
 
Mk3tm said:
Everybody has to do what they see as best, but the merger protections with ALPA are questionable.

Examples:

USAir-America West...both ALPA, did binding arbitration, theoretically should have been rather straight forward...didn't work out well, "binding" wasn't binding and has never been implemented, USAir dumps ALPA.

AirTran...bought by non-ALPA carrier, AT ALPA reps under guidance of ALPA attorneys accepted the worst of the three seniority proposals offered. Pilots screwed out of a chance to vote on a nearly immediate 50% pay raise. Didn't work out well but ALPA keeps collecting AT dues. So, ALPA cost AT plenty.

I can understand the appeal of ALPA when you don't have it, but the realities are what they are. A former NWA guy told me they were happy with the DAL deal because they got a pay raise in return for seniority...oops, sounds familiar!
Click to expand...

USair-Awest
AirTran-SW

Not a single pilot has lost his job in either of these mergers If I remember correctly. If my CEO was negotiating for me in a merger I don't think that would be the case.

Again. An in house would not work at JB for several reasons and is not an option. So again I ask. Would you get rid of all your ALPA representation and protections for your your CEO to make all your decisions for you at his wim. Your 1.95% tax deductible dues are an insurance policy. Insurance policies don't make you money. It is there to protect you when bad stuff happens. Try thinking of it that way.
 
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GogglesPisano said:
You are confusing getting a seat at the table and having our voice heard on capitol hill (lobbying) with supporting a candidate financially (PAC.)

How would you ensure your in-house union abides by your delicate political sensibilities?
Click to expand...

I have no problem with my in house union lobbying. I have an issue with ALPA supporting an agenda that is not 100% in the best interest of pilots at my company.

Also, under Citizens United, Unions can engage in direct contributions, not just via the pac. . .
 
$$$4nothin said:
USair-Awest
AirTran-SW

Not a single pilot has lost his job in either of these mergers If I remember correctly. If my CEO was negotiating for me in a merger I don't think that would be the case.

Again. An in house would not work at JB for several reasons and is not an option. So again I ask. Would you get rid of all your ALPA representation and protections for your your CEO to make all your decisions for you at his wim. Your 1.95% tax deductible dues are an insurance policy. Insurance policies don't make you money. It is there to protect you when bad stuff happens. Try thinking of it that way.
Click to expand...

Why are you so convinced that JB pilots could not create an effective In House union? You have plenty of pilots so the dues would buy you whatever expertise you want - and you are in NYC so you have the best attoreys and financial experts in the world at your doorstep. Just curious why you are selling yourself short. . .
 
Raoul Duke said:
Why are you so convinced that JB pilots could not create an effective In House union? You have plenty of pilots so the dues would buy you whatever expertise you want - and you are in NYC so you have the best attoreys and financial experts in the world at your doorstep. Just curious why you are selling yourself short. . .
Click to expand...


Dues would not be required until the first contract is signed. ZERO initial dollars to negotiate with.

Ask the air tran and fedex guys why they moves from Independent unions to ALPA.

The company bleed them dry and stalled at every opportunity because a weak inhouse union couldnt stay afloat and make gains.

I believe it would be nothing more than a recognized version of the student council we have now.
 

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