Is Spirits quick upgrade enough to work there?

[suupah]

With the new richer contracts at the legacies, you stand to lose out on a large pile of money coming to spirit even if you upgrade quickly. Looking at uniteds new contract, their pay scale on the FO side keeps pace with spirits captain side for the first 7-8 years.

 

[suupah]

 

[johnsonrod]

Interesting analysis. Sounds compelling from a monetary perspective. What's the estimated upgrade time at UAL for a newhire these days? Spirit would still be preferred by some people who don't want to be somebody's beeeotch for long. It comes down to what you are looking for in the job (I'll take the cash!). Personally, I'd be happy to take a 787 FO slot at UAL down the road and sit for awhile.......

I find it interesting in the grid above that the negotiated Bombardier CS300 rates are higher than the E195 rates even though the seat numbers are not too far off. Wonder if Republic has offered to sell its CS300 orders/options to UAL????

 

[suupah]

Point is to get the info out for the 2015 negotiations. A small pay raise is not enough in this generation of contracts

 

[SAABaroowski]

I guess it's certainly worth the discussion but your comparing United's 2017 rates vs Spirits 2015 rates that were negotiated YEARS ago. Hopefully our rates come up significantly

 

[suupah]

Hopefully... But if they fiddle fu(k around in negotiations for 2 years then get a cba with gradually increasing contractual rates over four years to achieve parity we won't see great rates until like 2021. That's a lot lost. Our greatest hope the way I see it is to dissuade people from coming here because of the disparity of pay and benefits forcing mgmt to get a deal done quickly or face labor shortages

 

[SAABaroowski]

^ I hear ya but there will NEVER be a shortage of pilots applying, you might just see the "less qualified" I think attrition buy junior guys will open mgmts eyes before lack of applicants.

 

[Flyer1015]

I wouldn't rely on future aircraft orders as good hope for what will happen. The current quick upgrade matters for those hired 2.5 years ago. Anything could change because this is aviation after all.

 

[suupah]

^ I hear ya but there will NEVER be a shortage of pilots applying, you might just see the "less qualified" I think attrition buy junior guys will open mgmts eyes before lack of applicants.

True, but I bet mgmt doesn't want to become a training ground for the kegacies

 

[Dart]

Pay will increase significantly next contract....but, what do we have to give up to get it!?

 

[ROSWELL41]

The quick upgrade is not the best reason to work at any airline. On a W2 basis, NK pilots are not much below the new UA contract for comparable equipment. What we need most is a boost to our retirement contribution by the company. There we lag UA and DL significantly.

 

[Beetle007]

With the new richer contracts at the legacies, you stand to lose out on a large pile of money coming to spirit even if you upgrade quickly. Looking at uniteds new contract, their pay scale on the FO side keeps pace with spirits captain side for the first 7-8 years.

If Spirit offered you the United contract (in its entirety), would you take it? No sarcasm....an honest question.

Pref bid, no more 4 days off, required to bid training on days off, no more transition conflicts, etc.

 

[SAABaroowski]

^ I don't know! my friends at United Are always working, I think the 4 days off thing absolutely needs to stay. I know it takes away flexibility from the company but they also work us 5+6 days in a row.............

 

[joevollers]

The question is better asked if it's worth leaving your current job regardless. Don't compare Spirit to the legacies because what if you don't get hired at the legacies? Maybe you go to Spirit then a legacy. Maybe you don't. Unless you can know for sure you have a legacy job in pocket, it's not a zero sum game.

 

[suupah]

If Spirit offered you the United contract (in its entirety), would you take it? No sarcasm....an honest question.

Pref bid, no more 4 days off, required to bid training on days off, no more transition conflicts, etc.

Personally I would not. Modest pay raises with similar work rules is what I would like to see but def no pref bid

 

[SAABaroowski]

^ agreed

 

[suupah]

Personally I would not. Modest pay raises with similar work rules is what I would like to see but def no pref bid

Most of the candy is at the top of this pay scale. The center of gravity needs to shift a bit

 

[hyflyin]

You will lose a ton of cash if you allow the company to use pref bid. Raise the money, keep the rules.

There is a lot of money and QOL in work rules. You just have to know how to use them.

 

[ROSWELL41]

I would prefer to keep our work rules with a modest (10% over three years say) pay raise. I would also like to see a DC to our 401k along with our soon to be 9% match. Also a solid long call reserve policy would be nice to have.

 

[SAABaroowski]

All good ideas. It's easy to get pay back, but hardly ever do groups get work rules back once given up

 

[SMcC]

Modest...?
Let's keep our work rules and QOL, and negotiate a significant raise! We've earned it! Management has substantial growth planned which will require a significant increase to the work force. How will they manage to appeal to quality applicants without a significant raise? The quick upgrade is great, but will it last more than the next 2 - 4 years?

 

[ROSWELL41]

The only way a large raise (20%+) will happen is with the acceptance of PBS. My price for accepting PBS would be much higher than that. You can't look at UA or DL's pay rates without analyzing their work rules. Accepting either ones work rules would be concessionary plain and simple. The NMB would not accept us asking for a 20-30% raise with our current work rules. They would say we are outside the mainstream since nearly all our peers have taken work rule concessions and implemented PBS. I agree in principle though, there's no reason we shouldn't be the top compensated or close to as A320 pilots. It's all how the value is structured. I don't need the biggest pay rate number necessarily.

 

[suupah]

Modest pay raises. Overall contract value needs to be on par w the legacies but the hourly rates only need a modest bump with a higher beginning wage

 

[SAABaroowski]

Am I being naive in saying I'm looking forward to 2015 (or whenever the contract is signed)

 

[suupah]

Might be the only one in our career that we have any real leverage! Let's not F?\:%k it up!!

 

[avratdwc]

Hey everyone. As a quick question to this subject. Are there any corporate folks here that would leave a nice corp gig to make the transition now to Spirit? I may be in that boat. I make roughly what a 2 year capt makes now but that it, no raise scales etc and like anything aviation it can go away tomorrow. However, great QOL but an unknown future. I live in FLL so the ability to do runs out of there would be very nice.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Avrat

 

[critterair2]

When will people understand its not about the hourly rate?

 

[ROSWELL41]

When will people understand its not about the hourly rate?

Not until they're flying the line at NK.

 

[huncowboy]

What is the incentive for the company to give us any raise in 2015? Why not just work us under a "pay freeze" for 4-5 years or longer? Every decision here is based on cost. They will only give us a contract if they can reduce cost. Not giving us a contract on the other hand is another way to reduce cost, because of inflation. Since most of us will not give up four days off and/or line bidding, I don't see how they could reduce cost any other way other than delaying negotiations.

If we keep hiring, in four years we will have 2000 pilots. To me that is the magic number. After #2000 upgrade could become a long deal. Relatively young group, not many retirements. The carrot is gone for good. But we will not have any problems hiring still. Retaining? Yes. But they will drop the minimums down to 2500TT or even all the way down to ATP, no jet PIC, just like in 2008. Who cares? They are not upgrading in 2.5 years. They will not have any problems finding FOs. They will have to beef up training even more and to me it seems they are already doing that anyways.

 

[SAABaroowski]

What is the incentive for the company to give us any raise in 2015? Why not just work us under a "pay freeze" for 4-5 years or longer? Every decision here is based on cost. They will only give us a contract if they can reduce cost. Not giving us a contract on the other hand is another way to reduce cost, because of inflation. Since most of us will not give up four days off and/or line bidding, I don't see how they could reduce cost any other way other than delaying negotiations.

If we keep hiring, in four years we will have 2000 pilots. To me that is the magic number. After #2000 upgrade could become a long deal. Relatively young group, not many retirements. The carrot is gone for good. But we will not have any problems hiring still. Retaining? Yes. But they will drop the minimums down to 2500TT or even all the way down to ATP, no jet PIC, just like in 2008. Who cares? They are not upgrading in 2.5 years. They will not have any problems finding FOs. They will have to beef up training even more and to me it seems they are already doing that anyways.

One thing is for sure, if they are concerned with costs, they sure as ******************** don't want another strike........