End of an Era

[27 driver]

The Airtran pilots internal bitch board is officially closed. For many its just another step in the demise of the little "A". Very sad.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

15 guys who thought everybody else was an idiot and constantly trying to prove how it was not them who screwed up the whole process by turning every thread into a he said she said. And then some threads about guns. Good riddance. Should have shut it down two years ago.

 

[maxblast72]

Should have shut it down two years ago.

Umm, it was shut down two years ago. The MEC shut it down for a few days as they were looking for a way to tank SIA #1.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Umm, it was shut down two years ago. The MEC shut it down for a few days as they were looking for a way to tank SIA #1.

So, numbers guy, why did they shut it down this time? Was it to protect your dfr suit?

BTW, it's been shut down several times since it's inception. Funny, the last two times have specifically centered around conversations you have been involved in. Coincidence? I don't think so. Please keep posting though, people have much larger binders than yours.

 

[ATLplt]

I'll miss the gun threads. Often lots of useful info there.

Seriously though, besides the usual back and forth about the SLI, there were always good tidbits about gotcha's from the company, hotel problems, and other various info that was often important. There's still over 1000 pilots over here with no outlet to air internal problems and what to watch for's. FI or APC aren't the appropriate outlets for those issues

 

[Secret Squirrel]

See, it could have started out as a thread about the maggots in the restaurant in terminal B and it would devolve into a merger fight. Should have stayed shut down two years ago.

There is always the alternate AAI forum site that was around during the shut down two years ago. That place I am sure is a hoot now.

 

[PCL_128]

There is always the alternate AAI forum site that was around during the shut down two years ago.

I think he shut that down a while ago.

This is a good step, though. The "numbers guy" was just using the forum to spread his lawsuit propaganda and to try to convince everyone (unsuccessfully) that he wasn't to blame for our screwjob and that AIP1 was a panacea. It was nothing but a vat of misinformation. Good riddance.

 

[27 driver]

It's not the shutting down of the forum that bothers me, but just another step in the demise of the little "A". For the most part the forum was useless but from time to time there was good info and maybe a laugh or two.

 

[PCL_128]

It's not the shutting down of the forum that bothers me, but just another step in the demise of the little "A".

I'm with you there. It is sad to see the airline slowing disappearing. The airplane being painted over in the crew lounge hallway and replaced with Southwest propaganda was the worst.

 

[Cometman]

I'm with you there. It is sad to see the airline slowing disappearing. The airplane being painted over in the crew lounge hallway and replaced with Southwest propaganda was the worst.

You won't be around too much longer if you really have the guts to quit before transitioning or was that just talk?

 

[scrub]

Give it a rest!

 

[PropPiedmont]

I'm with you there. It is sad to see the airline slowing disappearing. The airplane being painted over in the crew lounge hallway and replaced with Southwest propaganda was the worst.

Come to Dallas and you can see the giant AirTran 737 painting inside of the company headquarters building. It's like 10 feet across! First thing you see after clearing the security desk.

 

[intooclose]

I can't for the life of me why people want to rewrite history concerning Airtran. Do you F@#king guys remember Fornaro! Total loser. He paid s#@t and could never get the average ticket price we charged over $100. Southwest is consistantly over $150/fare. He ranked as one of the worst CEOs in terms of returning shareholder value...-60+%(CNBC). According to the Wall Street Journal we were literally 36 hours from bankruptcy in 2008. This is the same guy who yelled at two union guys in the terminal in front of passengers that we could not afford Alaska pay or benefits. I get it....the guys that have been here a long time saw a lot come from nothing...I get it. But...it is time to let the sun set on
"the little a. " The opinions expressed here are in no way to take anything away from the many great guys at Airtran. All, except a few cases, are great people and pilots. Now...where is that canyon blue paint....

 

[jstarav8r]

I saw Fornaro on SW the other day when I was commuting home. Wonder if he still has travel privileges? Was that part of his golden parachute?

 

[dicko]

Remember when Cramer Mad Money had his poll for worst airline CEO ? When Fornaro won, Cramer made a comment that he suspected some airline employees were heavily involved in the award. One of the few times the AirTran pilot group pulled in the same direction.

It is ironic that the forum was shut down primarily to limit any further damage done to the pilot group. Damage done by someone whose job it was to protect them.

 

[Parethd70]

Never in the history of the world has restricting communication been a good thing. The pilot I'm currently flying with was a lurker who never ever posted on the forum but is quite angry that it has been shut down. He rattled off a solid 10 or so examples of good information he has gleaned off the forum, information that our MEC would never or could never communicate. Examples he mentioned: recent gear pin issues, hotel issues, scheduling issues, etc.

The first sentence of their own resolution is complete crap: the forum is the least effective method for communicating? Give me a break. We get a weekly email update, typically with no content whatsoever. How is that effective?

And then they complain that they spend too much time "devoted to issues dealing with the forum". That's called being a rep. Deal with it. Pilots are going to call you either scared or pissed about stuff they hear somewhere or another. Here's a crazy idea...why didn't our leadership actually have a presence on the forum? You know, use it as a tool? Don't feed me BS about lawyers. I've been around. I've seen union reps use forums as great platforms for squashing BS and spreading helpful info.

 

[intooclose]

Remember when Cramer Mad Money had his poll for worst airline CEO ? When Fornaro won, Cramer made a comment that he suspected some airline employees were heavily involved in the award. One of the few times the AirTran pilot group pulled in the same direction.

It is ironic that the forum was shut down primarily to limit any further damage done to the pilot group. Damage done by someone whose job it was to protect them.

It wasn't worst airline CEO, it was Worst CEO. All CEOs were in the running. Yea, I agree there is plenty of blame to go around.

 

[Britpilot]

Never in the history of the world has restricting communication been a good thing. The pilot I'm currently flying with was a lurker who never ever posted on the forum but is quite angry that it has been shut down. He rattled off a solid 10 or so examples of good information he has gleaned off the forum, information that our MEC would never or could never communicate. Examples he mentioned: recent gear pin issues, hotel issues, scheduling issues, etc.

The first sentence of their own resolution is complete crap: the forum is the least effective method for communicating? Give me a break. We get a weekly email update, typically with no content whatsoever. How is that effective?

And then they complain that they spend too much time "devoted to issues dealing with the forum". That's called being a rep. Deal with it. Pilots are going to call you either scared or pissed about stuff they hear somewhere or another. Here's a crazy idea...why didn't our leadership actually have a presence on the forum? You know, use it as a tool? Don't feed me BS about lawyers. I've been around. I've seen union reps use forums as great platforms for squashing BS and spreading helpful info.

I agree.
It's another example of an out of touch leadership.
At least the weekly No news email told us to be happy for the SWA guys in ATL that now have an easier commute.

 

[Kharma Police]

So sad, what will the wise and all knowing German named oracle do now? Such a waste that all of his self proclaimed 100% accurate predictions will no longer be disseminated. One can only hope to have his all-star 1000 batting average of correctness.

 

[scarlet]

Another MEC decision without asking the pilots. It's truly amazing these people think they should make all major decisions. Yet we wonder why Airtran had the most recalls of any ALPA carrier in history.

If certain pilots did not like the forum, DONT GO THERE. DA.

ITs our dues, its our forum!

 

[Parethd70]

Oracle of the Obvious

So sad, what will the wise and all knowing German named oracle do now? Such a waste that all of his self proclaimed 100% accurate predictions will no longer be disseminated. One can only hope to have his all-star 1000 batting average of correctness.

Amen. I have never seen someone type so many words and say so little. And no one ever got the point. Perhaps its because he never had a point?

 

[PCL_128]

Here's a crazy idea...why didn't our leadership actually have a presence on the forum? You know, use it as a tool? Don't feed me BS about lawyers. I've been around. I've seen union reps use forums as great platforms for squashing BS and spreading helpful info.

Agreed. But since they weren't willing to do that, shutting it down was the next best thing. Allowing it to continue being a cesspool for misinformation and propaganda was not productive.

 

[scarlet]

Weren't willing to do that. They aren't willing to do much, just like the past. Ask the pilots,NO.?

 

[PCL_128]

Ask the pilots,NO.?

I don't expect leaders to ask their constituents before making decisions. They're elected for the very purpose of making decisions. Don't like them or their decisions? Vote them out.

 

[PCL_128]

Yet we wonder why Airtran had the most recalls of any ALPA carrier in history.

Not even close.

 

[scarlet]

There were rules in place concerning the forum. Leadership fail again!

There were how many recalls/recall attempts b/w 2006-2010? 10-15

 

[waveflyer]

Why don't you just get a pprune forum? Those dudes make FI look like kittens playing- you can pretend to disseminate useful info to your b/tching hearts content-

 

[Crash Pad]

Hey guys I know its on here somewhere... How do I get reimbursed for my medical?

 

[PanPan]

Hey guys I know its on here somewhere... How do I get reimbursed for my medical?

You inundate the union office with phone calls asking questions like this. Apparently they have plenty of time for questions, just not from the forum.

 

[maxblast72]

Allowing it (the ATN forum) to continue being a cesspool for misinformation and propaganda was not productive.

So a June 11, 2011 email authored by a guy that you and I agree both agree is "incredibly smart" and later became the ATN MEC Chair is misinformation or propaganda? Remember this email was written 35 days before the ATN Merger Committee agreed to AIP #1. The author's ability to digest recent ATN history and predict the future is truly amazing.

------------------------------------

　
June 11, 2011

Members of the ATN MEC,

I am deeply troubled by the course of recent events, most notably the removal of Sxxx Sxxxxxxx. After taking some time to consider the issues, I feel that while uncomfortable, it is in the best interest of the pilot group and the MEC for me to speak my mind freely.

I am taking this step for several reasons, but mostly because I fear that this MEC;

1) Will not lead.
2) Is blinded by hubris, and not led by logic.
3) Will not move past Go.

I say that the MEC will not lead because it is been demonstrated so. This first became apparent during section 6 negotiations, when the NC was told to "go get the best deal possible." I was in the room, so I know exactly what was said. The NC did as directed, not just in their opinion, but in the opinion of our professional negotiators, legal counsel and others who have decades of experience in contract talks. The contract was not perfect for reasons much more attributable to circumstance than commission, and this was easily explained to and understood by the vast majority of pilots. However, instead of taking ownership of the product gained at their direction, some members of the MEC chose to take the low road and threw the NC, and eventually the NC chairman, under the union bus. This last act, the removal of Sxxx Sxxxxxxx, appears void of reason and driven completely by personality. Furthermore, at the very least, it must have SWAPA and Southwest management questioning the direction of our union and our viability as a stable partner to lead the pilots through the merger.

The next example of leadership failure came during the discussion of MEMRAT as related to the Process Agreement with SWAPA. You will recall that everyone agreed that MEMRAT should be waived because it was the judgment of the status representatives that it was in the best interest of the pilots to do so. However, out of fear that this might be an unpopular decision, a request was made that the MC state in its messaging that the reps were acting at the MC?s request, thereby giving "cover" to the MEC. In other words, out of fear that they were making an unpopular or controversial decision ? irrespective of the fact that it was the right decision ? some of the reps could not find the courage to explain as such to the members. The irony, of course, is that the membership understood the facts better than some of our reps, and the decision was not controversial in the least.

My final example of leadership failure comes from the rather obvious attempt to install a new Vice Chairman immediately after the recall of Txxx Oxxxxxxxx. This caper demonstrated that some members of the MEC are willing to take extreme and undemocratic measures when it suites their agenda. Their apparent willingness to disenfranchise the pilot group should be alarming to all.

This last example also confirms a level of hubris unwarranted by anyone claiming to do the pilots? work. Where is the logic in not keeping the election process fair and open to all? Where is the logic in shifting blame for one?s own potentially unpopular but correct decision to our most important committee when that committee?s very credibility must remain unquestioned? And where is the logic in a pilot with no legal or negotiating experience refuting the counsel of those who are experts in their field because they do not like the facts as they exist? There is none. The only explanation to me is that decisions are not being made by a logical process, but through the spectrum of pride and fear.

I fear that if and when the Merger Committee returns to the MEC with a negotiated settlement, either before or after mediation, the MEC will follow its demonstrated pattern of behavior. Having failed to show leadership in the past and a willingness to dodge responsibility for what was feared to be unpopular decisions, the MEC may not support the MC, will not follow the advice of the MC and/or our counsel, and will put the future of our pilots in jeopardy. To be clear, I am not making a judgment as to whether we will find ourselves in arbitration, but rather whether if the MEC is willing to accept and follow the advice and judgment of those best informed of the process.

Finally, there seems to be a consistent willingness to make decisions based on the Forum. I had a discussion with some of the reps regarding this a few nights ago, and I suggested that they not be guided only by what they read on the web board, as few pilots actually post on it. One of the reps then remarked at how many "lurkers" visit the board. What I failed to say at the time was that [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]if [/FONT][/FONT]the Forum was a good indicator of member sentiment, the vote to recall Mxxx Hxxxx would have gone 3-1 in the other direction. It did not.

I am certain that I may have offended some of you with my assessment of the situation as I see it, and not all of you will agree with my conclusions. Some may simply dismiss this as sour grapes in the wake of my loss in the VC election, but that would be a serious mistake. I believe this discussion needs to take place. I am happy to continue it either en masse, or on an individual basis, in the hope that by bringing these issues to the fore, they can be honestly and openly addressed.