Endeavor Air-(Pinnacle, Colgan, Mesaba)

[Flyer1015]

I lived through it twice, as I was Colgan before Pinnacle bought us out and ran us into the ground.

Lets keep the facts here, if it wasn't for the Pinnacle buyout of Colgan, Colgan wouldn't have existed beyond what it was. It would have done a few more years of Beech 1900/SF340 flying and then Mr. Colgan would have eventually tired of it and letting his business go. And there is no way a stand-alone Colgan would have had the money/capital to get 30 Q400s, which by the way was money used from the NWA bankruptcy convertible note of 191 million at the same time they told Pinnacle pilots their ALPA proposed contract would bankrupt the company, and when they displaced/downgraded Pinnacle pilots while non-union Colgan grew.

Whatever we are a year from now, we'll be a lot smaller and a lot happier because most of the SL will leave or get furloughed. Those left will be the ones that can truck through anything.

No, those left will be the ones 1. are unhireable or 2. have hopes/dreams hung on the SSP or 3. still trying to get to any airline besides Delta nor another regional. Hopefully the applications are flying out there to anyone hiring.

 

[gojo]

Lets keep the facts here, if it wasn't for the Pinnacle buyout of Colgan, Colgan wouldn't have existed beyond what it was. It would have done a few more years of Beech 1900/SF340 flying and then Mr. Colgan would have eventually tired of it and letting his business go. And there is no way a stand-alone Colgan would have had the money/capital to get 30 Q400s, which by the way was money used from the NWA bankruptcy convertible note of 191 million at the same time they told Pinnacle pilots their ALPA proposed contract would bankrupt the company, and when they displaced/downgraded Pinnacle pilots while non-union Colgan grew.


No, those left will be the ones 1. are unhireable or 2. have hopes/dreams hung on the SSP or 3. still trying to get to any airline besides Delta nor another regional. Hopefully the applications are flying out there to anyone hiring.

Pinnacle had no business buying anybody. They could barely run Pinnacle for the last 10 years. I don't know what the h$ll they were thinking when they bought Colgan and then Mesaba

 

[jynxyjericho]

Lets keep the facts here, if it wasn't for the Pinnacle buyout of Colgan, Colgan wouldn't have existed beyond what it was.

Keep to the facts? Wouldn't have existed beyond what it was? Good Lord do you ever listen to yourself? Firstly that Beech 1900 and SF340 flying you think nothing of got plenty of guys hired at SWA, NWA, Delta, Fedex, JetBlue, etc. We couldn't even keep the place staffed so many left from the top and bottom of the list to go onto other airlines. One pilot from a class prior was hired on with American Express on a GIV. This was all pre-buyout. There was nothing wrong with the Colgan flying. It was a bottom paying regional, probably closer to the commuter variety, and it got a lot of pilots what they needed and they moved on. Colgan was a great shortcut and worked out for a lot of pilots who wanted their time and could move on quickly. Age 65 may have changed some of that, but you'd have to ask someone who was there for more than a year.

It would have done a few more years of Beech 1900/SF340 flying and then Mr. Colgan would have eventually tired of it and letting his business go.

You mean sold it to someone else? Perfectly possible. He also could have handed over the company to his family which was already in every leadership and management position. Chuckles had a lot of options, and you can't forsee them all. However Phildo of Pinnacle, was the dumbest to come along and offer the most money the quickest, and Chuckles jumped on it. Anytime someone wants to trade me good money for magic beans I do the same thing.

And there is no way a stand-alone Colgan would have had the money/capital to get 30 Q400s, which by the way was money used from the NWA bankruptcy convertible note of 191 million at the same time they told Pinnacle pilots their ALPA proposed contract would bankrupt the company, and when they displaced/downgraded Pinnacle pilots while non-union Colgan grew.

I was trying to break this sentence up, then I realized it was a run on. You're making a lot of points here, mostly historical, but I see what you are trying to say. You do hide it quite well with your Festivus "airing of grievances."

Yes, Pinnacle had a lot of money, and blew it all on Colgan in hopes of buying a ton of Dashes to expand their code shares. It was a strategic move, one which could have made Pinnacle into the next Skywest/Republic because it circumvented their union pilots for a non union group and it opened up code shares with other majors immediately (rather than trying to push with their current pilot group). It could have been great for Pinnacle management and shareholders.

Pinnacle management failed. That's not the Pinnacle pilots fault, and it's not the Colgan pilots fault. It's clear the Q contract was never bid out to make money, just get Pinnacles foot in the door and hope for more flying opportunities in the future. Even with the crash, Continental awarded them another 15 Dashes afterwards. I have my own suspicions why the Colgan flying never grew like they wanted, and never made the money they wanted, but that's another 5 page thread isn't it? (My first look would be toward that at-risk-flying... maybe you should start another thread Flyer)

No, those left will be the ones 1. are unhireable or 2. have hopes/dreams hung on the SSP or 3. still trying to get to any airline besides Delta nor another regional. Hopefully the applications are flying out there to anyone hiring.

I would agree with this list in a scenario 2-5 years from now. However a year from now (the time period I was speaking of), you'll still have plenty of hireable pilots here wanting to go to Delta without any hope the SSP will work. I have to believe you mean "in years to come" and didn't actually read my post before you started rambling.

Not to confuse the issue, but we have pilots I flew with this month who have turned down a class or an interview with Virgin. The "get out of here no matter what airline calls" mentality has mostly left for other airlines already be it top, middle, or bottom of the list. If Jetblue, Fedex, a Contiental hire surely you will see hundreds more pilots out the door, and I think some of that will happen within a year.

Pinnacle had no business buying anybody. They could barely run Pinnacle for the last 10 years. I don't know what the h$ll they were thinking when they bought Colgan and then Mesaba

Well Colgan was an option, I don't think they were given a good option on Mesaba. Mostly my info comes from managers who have left that wanted to do a little "wring-and-run" and some union guys who did their best to answer questions during the bankruptcy. It sounds like Delta lied a little and Pinnacle lied a little, it came to a head, and Delta knifed us in the heart because it saved them money in the long run. If the situation had been a little different we probably would have been fine and picked up more flying with airlines besides Delta. Unfortunately Phil made some promises he couldn't keep, and saw the opportunity to pick up some market share on the -900 flying before it went to Skywest/ASA again. He prayed they'd find a way to make it all work before the cash ran out, but no cigar.

I think Phil and his cronies got into the mindset if they didn't make a lot of short term choices on growth, they wouldn't be there in the long run. Delta was already threatening to park the -200's in the coming years, which they are going to do anyway now, and there was an opportunity to pick up a lot of -900's and keep the -200's flying for another 5 years (be it at a reduced rate). If he'd had more cash in the bank things could have turned out differently. I don't know what I would have done in his shoes, but I like to look at myself in the mirror so my choices wouldn't have landed me on the web boards for the next 2 years.

 

[Flyer1015]

Pinnacle had no business buying anybody. They could barely run Pinnacle for the last 10 years. I don't know what the h$ll they were thinking when they bought Colgan and then Mesaba

Well Colgan is an easy answer. That was the non-union airline bought when union ALPA Pinnacle was deep in contract negotiations. Pinnacle's contract was amendable May 2005 and the Colgan purchase was finalized in Jan 2007. Shortly after, Colgan got several dozen Q400s while Pinnacle pilots were being downgraded and displaced. Phil T's goal was to create a non-union platform to put downward pressure on a union ALPA Pinnacle, and he succeeded. May 2005 to Feb 2011 since amendable date is a record, second only to Evergreen.

 

[Flyer1015]

Keep to the facts? Wouldn't have existed beyond what it was? Good Lord do you ever listen to yourself? Firstly that Beech 1900 and SF340 flying you think nothing of got plenty of guys hired at SWA, NWA, Delta, Fedex, JetBlue, etc. We couldn't even keep the place staffed so many left from the top and bottom of the list to go onto other airlines. One pilot from a class prior was hired on with American Express on a GIV. This was all pre-buyout. There was nothing wrong with the Colgan flying. It was a bottom paying regional, probably closer to the commuter variety, and it got a lot of pilots what they needed and they moved on. Colgan was a great shortcut and worked out for a lot of pilots who wanted their time and could move on quickly. Age 65 may have changed some of that, but you'd have to ask someone who was there for more than a year.

I'm aware of the above, as 'Flying Cheap' ex-Colgan pilots pointed out too.

You mean sold it to someone else? Perfectly possible. He also could have handed over the company to his family which was already in every leadership and management position. Chuckles had a lot of options, and you can't forsee them all. However Phildo of Pinnacle, was the dumbest to come along and offer the most money the quickest, and Chuckles jumped on it. Anytime someone wants to trade me good money for magic beans I do the same thing.

See my post above. Phil T bought a non-union airline as a growth platform.

Pinnacle management failed. That's not the Pinnacle pilots fault, and it's not the Colgan pilots fault. It's clear the Q contract was never bid out to make money, just get Pinnacles foot in the door and hope for more flying opportunities in the future. Even with the crash, Continental awarded them another 15 Dashes afterwards. I have my own suspicions why the Colgan flying never grew like they wanted, and never made the money they wanted, but that's another 5 page thread isn't it? (My first look would be toward that at-risk-flying... maybe you should start another thread Flyer)

You're going with somewhere, you should lead it. I'm not sure I'm following what you are getting at.

I would agree with this list in a scenario 2-5 years from now. However a year from now (the time period I was speaking of), you'll still have plenty of hireable pilots here wanting to go to Delta without any hope the SSP will work. I have to believe you mean "in years to come" and didn't actually read my post before you started rambling.

Not to confuse the issue, but we have pilots I flew with this month who have turned down a class or an interview with Virgin. The "get out of here no matter what airline calls" mentality has mostly left for other airlines already be it top, middle, or bottom of the list. If Jetblue, Fedex, a Contiental hire surely you will see hundreds more pilots out the door, and I think some of that will happen within a year.

First of all, if you are going to turn down a class or an interview, why apply in the first place?

Turn down VX to stay at Endeavor? Pilots really aren't the sharpest tools in the shed are they. Worse case scenario at VX is a free PIC A320 type rating, and Airbus time which opens up lots of opportunity in the Middle East and Asia, in addition to getting your resume at the top of the pile at Spirit and JetBlue. Worse case scenario at Endeavor is being a jobless CRJ-200 pilot, not like there aren't those already.

Which is why when I hear a RJ CA say that this hiring sucks and I'm still here because no one is hiring, it's all BS. What they really mean to say is FedEx hasn't called me. Or Delta. There's been plenty of hiring at JetBlue, Spirit, and Virgin and all sorts of regional pilots, both left and right seats have gotten out. Some RJ guys are too comfortable making 70-90 grand and want to do so until they get picked up by FedEx or Delta. They are above flying for Spirit/JetBlue/Virgin. Good luck to them. Hopefully their escape to FedEx or Delta happens before their seat disappears with the CRJ-200s being parked.

 

[i fly boxes]

200s start leaving August 20 24 this year

 

[DoinTime]

May 2005 to Feb 2011 since amendable date is a record, second only to Evergreen.

You've got a lot to learn about the history of negotiations under the RLA if you think that statement is accurate.

 

[jynxyjericho]

I'm aware of the above, as 'Flying Cheap' ex-Colgan pilots pointed out too.

You ignore it if you are aware of it. Or you simply refuse it to accept its validity. Colgan didn't need Q's to upgrade people quickly. Part of the interview was where you saw yourself in 5 years, they made sure you saw yourself somewhere else in 5 years.

See my post above. Phil T bought a non-union airline as a growth platform.

That wasn't my point. You want to act opaque, that's fine, the readers can decide for themselves.

You're going with somewhere, you should lead it. I'm not sure I'm following what you are getting at.

It was part of the larger point you are doing your best to ignore- it's fine. I'm not trying to convince you, just giving the readers something factual to digest. Just keep acting dopey, it works for you.

First of all, if you are going to turn down a class or an interview, why apply in the first place?

Oh some people just want to see if it's the right fit. Other's go because it's good practice. Sometimes they hope to be wow'ed by the company when they aren't exactly sure if they want the job or not. It's worth noting these are pretty normal reasons for the interview, that's why they put on the show.

Turn down VX to stay at Endeavor? Pilots really aren't the sharpest tools in the shed are they.

Good God are you really that stupid? Are you really in a position to say what is the best fit for every pilot at this airline? I guess you fell on your head when you were real young but most of us learn over time to accept other peoples decisions and respect them.

Worse case scenario at VX is a free PIC A320 type rating, and Airbus time which opens up lots of opportunity in the Middle East and Asia, in addition to getting your resume at the top of the pile at Spirit and JetBlue. Worse case scenario at Endeavor is being a jobless CRJ-200 pilot, not like there aren't those already.

While I see that can be one path, certainly you are aware there are plenty of people at Jetblue and Spirit in classes now from Pinn-Deavor? They made it to the top of the pile without the A320 rating. You can see that right?

Which is why when I hear a RJ CA say that this hiring sucks and I'm still here because no one is hiring, it's all BS. What they really mean to say is FedEx hasn't called me. Or Delta. There's been plenty of hiring at JetBlue, Spirit, and Virgin and all sorts of regional pilots, both left and right seats have gotten out. Some RJ guys are too comfortable making 70-90 grand and want to do so until they get picked up by FedEx or Delta. They are above flying for Spirit/JetBlue/Virgin. Good luck to them. Hopefully their escape to FedEx or Delta happens before their seat disappears with the CRJ-200s being parked.

That might be some of the pilots but it's not all. You're just so God damn negative about your ex-coworkers that you oversimplify their intent and their goals. I can't tell if that comes from an angry place, a lack of self worth, or simple cranial density. Whatever it is, let it go. The sooner you do the less likely it is that you'll get bit later. Let's not forget your troubles here at Pinnacle.

 

[Flyer1015]

Good God are you really that stupid? Are you really in a position to say what is the best fit for every pilot at this airline? I guess you fell on your head when you were real young but most of us learn over time to accept other peoples decisions and respect them.

Yeah, if you turn down a LCC to stay at Endeavor, I'd put that in a stupid-move category because they are going from 200+ planes down to 81. That's a guaranteed job loss.

Oh some people just want to see if it's the right fit. Other's go because it's good practice. Sometimes they hope to be wow'ed by the company when they aren't exactly sure if they want the job or not. It's worth noting these are pretty normal reasons for the interview, that's why they put on the show.

While I may do it at a regional, I wouldn't do this at a LCC or major. Get hired and turn them down, that's one way to make sure you are never hired there again.

While I see that can be one path, certainly you are aware there are plenty of people at Jetblue and Spirit in classes now from Pinn-Deavor? They made it to the top of the pile without the A320 rating. You can see that right?

They are smart, realizing that the SSP isn't worth anything and better to get out asap.

It was part of the larger point you are doing your best to ignore- it's fine. I'm not trying to convince you, just giving the readers something factual to digest. Just keep acting dopey, it works for you.

What larger point?

As for my troubles at 9E, I had one JA refusal that led to a meeting and that was it, otherwise a clean record.

 

[Flyer1015]

You've got a lot to learn about the history of negotiations under the RLA if you think that statement is accurate.

What ALPA carrier have had longer times under amendable date than Evergreen and Pinnacle? Curious because I remember reading an ALPA update about time under amendable date, and how 9E and Evergreen stood out in that sense.