Alaska contract

[Alaska Flyer]

ALPA and Management came to an agreement in concept today for a new 5 year contract. Sounds like it will take a couple of weeks to clean up some of the wording and then present to MEC so they can decide if it's worthy of a Tentative Agreement. We will see I guess...

 

[Boxboy]

Just yesterday, negotiations break down over pay and pow!.... we have an agreement in concept, 5 year contract to boot. Interesting indeed. It beats a fork in the eye. Puzzle palace finally realized that it's probably not smart going into summer with a pissed off pilot group and the FA's negotiations in impasse. We shall see...

 

[AKMD80GUY]

There's a thread on the other forum board also. Seems scope is a big issue that was somehow not mentioned in the email. No scope protection equals a no vote.

What's the point of a few extra dollars if they are going to eventually farm out our jobs. Just look at what has happened around the industry. To somehow think Alaska Spirit will keep our jobs is foolish. Don't let the company punk us again.

 

[instructordude]

There's a thread on the other forum board also. Seems scope is a big issue that was somehow not mentioned in the email. No scope protection equals a no vote.

What's the point of a few extra dollars if they are going to eventually farm out our jobs. Just look at what has happened around the industry. To somehow think Alaska Spirit will keep our jobs is foolish. Don't let the company punk us again.

Don't shoot it down for just scope. Look at the whole package including payscales.

 

[wood pecker]

Maybe the merger rumor is true. I heard from a jumpseater that Delta or Southwest is buying Alaska. I replied what are they going to do with all that land?

 

[felixpuppy]

Maybe we can then refer to it as "Kelley's Folley."

 

[wingit]

It does mention "better protections for the flying we currently perform" so we'll have to see exactly what that is.

 

[Ocity]

Cautiously Optimistic

 

[RNP.15]

We shall see.

 

[Jim]

Don't shoot it down for just scope. Look at the whole package including payscales.

BS. Scope is key.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

BS. Scope is key.

Jim, meet instructordude. He's one of the resident trolls. Read some of his other posts for entertainment only.

 

[BornFromJets]

Unofficially, 11%,1.5%,1.5%,3.5%,1.5%.

 

[SVA_402]

Good to know, I agree. While all parts of the contract are important to consider, I'd rather have scope than a 200% pay increase and no scope. I've seen too many people get completely screwed. Ask DHL pilots...

 

[igneousy2]

I disagree about waiting, I can read enough by reading between the lines to know that I am voting no. I think you have to make a choice now, and start getting organized now, and talking to people now, else, it get railroaded through by the near-retirees like the last one did. Once they release the "details" there is no time for a counter-argument to get organized. The blue is an exerpt from the Negotiators update sent to all pilots.

"...It is a five-year agreement with pay increases that reflect the upward trend in the industry..."

What is more important is what the negotiating committee DIDN'T say. What I need to hear is that our contract contains INDUSTRY LEADING PAY. INDUSTRY LEADING PAY for INDUSTRY LEADING PROFITS. If the NC were able to attain that, they most certainly would just come out and say it. Delta, UAL, etc. negotiate NB rates as almost an after-thought. They know their guys will make up for it if they want to by moving up to the WB's so that is where they focus their attention. We don't have that option, therefore, the 737 pay rate needs/better be AT LEAST DELTA if not DELTA +. (SWA is not as direct a comparison so I won't get into it right now, but they need to be considered also) Also note that they are increasing the revenue opportunity across the fleet by 5%ish by adding the new seats...that means to me that the first 3-5% of pay raise comes without effecting their CASM one cent.


" ...and enhancements to our job security in the areas of furlough and merger and acquisition...."

Okay, thre are a lot of contractual softballs that I was sure the company would give us anyway...I'll agree to wait and see if there is anything beyond that. i.e. - placing a no-furlough condition on any acquirer...that actually helps management stay-single, which is what they want anyway...so no surprise if we got that kind of language.

"...It contains better protections for the flying we currently perform,..."

Again, what is not being said is important...We also need future flying protection. The danger for us is the 100ish seat jet. There is a LOT of future flying opportunities between a DHC-8-400 and a 737-800 (which will become the smallest airplane we fly by the time this proposed new contract is up). That is why DAL, UAL, and AA all have rates for these new types. Post if you know - but I intend to research if the various companies have to let them fly the jets, as opposed to just having rates negotiated.

"...and work rule enhancements that improve scheduling flexibility..."

What they meant by that statment the last time was the whore-s could whore more and get paid more while they were whoring...I almost don't care what it is, I don't think it will be a good thing.

We also protected our retirement and insurance benefits..."

I think by "we" they mean everybody but the new guys with no A-plan...but anyway, I digress.

I am already at a no vote...It needs to be an industry leading rate of pay with protections for current AND gives us new flying. It seems pretty obvious to me that this new contract will come up short in these two areas. When the NC sends out an email and says we have negotiated Industry Leading Pay, that protects all our current flying, and ensures that we perform all future flying for air group, only then will I agree to wait for the details. Until then, you can count me as a 'no'-advocate.

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

Ingeousy2: must be an ALPA senior blood sucker, try and get as much union dues out of the pilots before they have have no option but to strike or wait until they get bought out by another airline and prolong the integration so as to fill their coffers with more ill gotten gains

 

[Chief Pilot]

What Igneousy2 said +1. Sorry Dublin, you are obviously not an Alaska pilot. Your anti-ALPA rant doesn't lend you any credibility.

 

[wscrj]

I'm with Ig. Dublin....plenty of WN threads for you to spout off on. Run along.

 

[Boxboy]

Unofficially, 11%,1.5%,1.5%,3.5%,1.5%.

Hope not? And reading between the lines, sounds like weak to very little scope. Remains to be seen but it seems like another "greedy geezer contract"!

 

[Old School 737]

I think it needs to start at about 208 for the top pay and have no less than 2% per year and should be up around 3%...but well see ...

 

[Old School 737]

Rumor only .. 11 , 4 ,4,4,4, guess well see in a few weeks

 

[becket]

Rumor only .. 11 , 4 ,4,4,4, guess well see in a few weeks

I'd be shocked if this were true.

 

[PCL_128]

"...It is a five-year agreement with pay increases that reflect the upward trend in the industry..."

What is more important is what the negotiating committee DIDN'T say. What I need to hear is that our contract contains INDUSTRY LEADING PAY. INDUSTRY LEADING PAY for INDUSTRY LEADING PROFITS.

Really? Pilots consistently shoot themselves in the foot by not considering the time value of money. What good is an extra 5% if you have to wait 5 years to get it? If either of the above rumored pay increases is true, then you should be down on your hands and knees thanking the NC for getting it done so quickly.

 

[Mamma]

The first "rumor" puts Capt pay at $218.60 at the end of 5 years with profit sharing possibly still intact and the A-plan for those in it. FO pay is around $147.75. That seems more realistic than the second "rumor" which is too high.

 

[Ocity]

The first "rumor" puts Capt pay at $218.60 at the end of 5 years with profit sharing possibly still intact and the A-plan for those in it. FO pay is around $147.75. That seems more realistic than the second "rumor" which is too high.

The MOU that American just signed has NB FO rates in 2018 around $156/hr. I will be a little pissed if we can't match a pay rate that a BANKRUPT carrier has just agreed to. Hopefully the first rumor is too low. The second rumor sounds too good to be true.

 

[alaskaplt]

Really? Pilots consistently shoot themselves in the foot by not considering the time value of money. What good is an extra 5% if you have to wait 5 years to get it? If either of the above rumored pay increases is true, then you should be down on your hands and knees thanking the NC for getting it done so quickly.

With this logic you will spend your entire career behind every other carrier. Seems logical for the immediate future but its short sighted. Over a career it's going to keep our earnings lower. The company loves this logic. Other carriers have set the bar and we need to push that bar further. I just fear we do not have that mindset.

 

[Boxboy]

With this logic you will spend your entire career behind every other carrier. Seems logical for the immediate future but its short sighted. Over a career it's going to keep our earnings lower. The company loves this logic. Other carriers have set the bar and we need to push that bar further. I just fear we do not have that mindset.

Completely agree. Too many pussies not enough balls (brains too)!

 

[PCL_128]

With this logic you will spend your entire career behind every other carrier. Seems logical for the immediate future but its short sighted. Over a career it's going to keep our earnings lower. The company loves this logic. Other carriers have set the bar and we need to push that bar further. I just fear we do not have that mindset.

This is nonsense. Management makes out like bandits because pilots believe they can force another $2 out of them in a pay rate. They cry poor to the NMB, they stonewall, and five years later you end up with an extra couple of bucks. In the meantime, management has saved multi-millions, and they laugh at you as they sign on the dotted line, happy as can be.

The path to successful pattern bargaining in a deregulated environment is executing a series of smaller victories. Trying for the big jumps in pay and the complete CBA re-writes is exactly what management wants you to do.

 

[alaskaplt]

This is nonsense. Management makes out like bandits because pilots believe they can force another $2 out of them in a pay rate. They cry poor to the NMB, they stonewall, and five years later you end up with an extra couple of bucks. In the meantime, management has saved multi-millions, and they laugh at you as they sign on the dotted line, happy as can be.

The path to successful pattern bargaining in a deregulated environment is executing a series of smaller victories. Trying for the big jumps in pay and the complete CBA re-writes is exactly what management wants you to do.

Short sighted. When you retire and look back at every contract that was below everyone else's you can say "but I had the time value of money". Though it always is below everyone else somehow this makes sense.
If management wanted us to do what you are saying there would be no agreement in principle. This is what they want right now..This contract signed. And for us to sell it to ourselves based on your time value of money argument like last time. Assuming the rates are what is suggested.

 

[Old School 737]

We need to be the highest NB pay !! Period!! That's all we fly .. The company has never been bankrupt .. They have scope on there side ... We do more with this jet than anybody... The pension is over for any new guys .. The insiders racking up huge profits on there stock options .. It's time ...

 

[PCL_128]

Short sighted. When you retire and look back at every contract that was below everyone else's you can say "but I had the time value of money". Though it always is below everyone else somehow this makes sense.

You're getting too caught up in what everyone else has. This is a simple math problem, not an ego issue. You can certainly get what everyone else has. But you'll have to wait a hell of a long time for it. In the intervening timeframe, you'll have lost far more money than you'll make by the extra gains. What good is bragging rights that you have the "industry leading" pay rate when it took so long to get it that it cost you tens of thousands of dollars?