Southwest Line on Credit?

[waveflyer]

So what's the deal over there-
Everybody at AT has to be pissed and feel like they got screwed or they'll be browbeaten into silence by the aggro crowd?

 

[PCL_128]

I don't know if I would compare United 2000 and Southwest 2013. Southwest's current balance sheet is stronger than United's even in 2000 not to mention that Southwest has zero pension obligations to fund.

You love to talk about the balance sheet and the lack of pension obligations, but you consistently ignore all of the other metrics important for judging the health of a company and its capacity for growth. Whether you look at operating margin, net margin, return on equity, return on assets, or virtually any other metric used to judge the effectiveness of management, SWA is performing atrociously, and has been for some time. Yes, SWA has plenty of money sitting around (by airline standards). But the problem is that management doesn't seem to have the slightest clue what to do with all of that cash to create shareholder value. Shareholders would be smarter to put their money in a CD rather than giving it to Gary to sit on for the next decade. And just as the shareholders get screwed by Gary's inability to produce value, so do the employees get screwed by career stagnation.

 

[DCitrus9]

My point? I was responding to Wave et al that claim It took longer to get hired at SW and /or that we got too much in this deal. I simply gave some facts that may show their level of b.s. They think if they repeat it enough it will be true, but it is not.
Retired mil guy? He is on his second career and has benies and a pension, his level on the seniority list is hardly relevant.

 

[dicko]

Please show your work! Are you a FOQA gatekeeper at BOTH airlines? Where are you coming up with this data? Is it published somewhere? I've never seen FOQA data from multiple airlines published side by side ANYWHERE! If you have access to this data, please share it with the rest of us. Other than factual data to back up your assertions I will assume you are just making it up.

Are you even an airline pilot ? "Please share it with us ?" ..... If you're interested then I suggest you contact the gatekeepers or Flight Ops and find out for yourself.

Both airlines have access to each others FOQA data. Publish it on FI yourself. Farkin Muppet..

 

[bluesideup1]

My friend from A/T was a two year captain when he decided to come to Southwest. It wasn't easy as he lived in ATL but after looking at all the advantages that SW had over AT it became an easy choice. Airtran pilots had about 400 applications on file or around a quarter of your pilot group all had apps in at SW prior to the purchase. NONE of the Southwest pilots had apps in at Airtran!

To all those at A/T that thought arbitration would have saved them from their horrible fate of being bought by one of the most successful airline companies in the world. It wouldn't have. Even the arbitrators in the dispute between the mechanics realized that the two were not equal careers. That is why the mechanics from A/T were made to give up anywhere from 2-3 years seniority to come over to the Southwest side.

In all honesty can you say with a straight face that Airtran formerly Value Jet was in even the same class as Southwest? How many books have been written about Airtran? How many college professors used airtran as examples of how to run a successful business? How many Business leaders tried to mimic Airtran to run their business successfully? Let me help you with those answers. NONE!

When you told people you worked for Airtran how many times did you have to explain who the hell Airtran was? Don't worry as a new Southwest purchase you will never have to do that again as most people will now smile at you and say how much they love Southwest.

Our contract was head and shoulders above yours prior to the merger and strike vote of 99%. It took over 30+ years to get that contract and to think that you can just walk in and enjoy the blood and sweat that went into getting where we are today just by saying Airtran was equal berates all those who stived to get us were we are today. I am not saying that someday Airtran wouldn't be where we are today but before Southwest bought Airtran it wasn't even close.

 

[waveflyer]

I was going to make a similar argument, and then I realized -A) it's long over.
And B) trying to convince 6 anonymous AT hard liners on FI is pretty pointless-

Just know C) if you're from another carrier and GK loses his mind again and decides to spend the profit of our collective efforts buying you, don't expect as good a deal as AT got.

 

[PCL_128]

In all honesty can you say with a straight face that Airtran formerly Value Jet was in even the same class as Southwest?

Nope. Our product was far superior.

How many books have been written about Airtran? How many college professors used airtran as examples of how to run a successful business? How many Business leaders tried to mimic Airtran to run their business successfully? Let me help you with those answers. NONE!

The Southwest that you describe is yesterday's news. No business leaders are trying to mimic SWA today. SWA is the poster child for failing to deliver shareholder value.

When you told people you worked for Airtran how many times did you have to explain who the hell Airtran was?

Never. The response was usually "Oh, I LOVE AirTran! I ride on you guys whenever I can!"

Don't worry as a new Southwest purchase you will never have to do that again as most people will now smile at you and say how much they love Southwest.

Actually, since the merger was announced, the typical comment from one of our customers has been "I'm sorry to see AirTran go. I'm going to have to start using Delta. Can't stand that no assigned seating thing on Southwest."

 

[Just thinking]

Everybody knows the following:
1) A great guy and a great pilot that interviewed and got hired at SWA.

2) A person who is personality challenged and aeronautically disfunctional who interview with SWA and got hired

3) A great guy and a great pilot who had all the tickets with all the type ratings who interviewed and did not get hired.

Since you work at SWA you are #1 or #2. You be the judge.

Guess what? You are just like every other airline. Every HR department has their nuances and quirks. Just because they told you that they hired "only the best" when you showed up to day 1 of initial training does not make it so. If you believed that line then you are probably leaning towards the #2 example above.

If you can look at yourself in the mirror and laugh at yourself then you have enough modesty to realize that SWA is not infallible. SWA needs to look at the procedures and practices and evolve into an airline that will continue to grow in technology and the aircraft they fly and the way that they operate.

If you continue to believe that you are the "best of the best" you will continue down the primrose path to your own destruction. Your choice.

 

[HowardBorden]

Are you even an airline pilot ? "Please share it with us ?" ..... If you're interested then I suggest you contact the gatekeepers or Flight Ops and find out for yourself.

Both airlines have access to each others FOQA data. Publish it on FI yourself. Farkin Muppet..

What a joke! In other words, "I can't publish the data because I don't have it. I am simply making this stuff up as I go."

 

[redflyer65]

You love to talk about the balance sheet and the lack of pension obligations, but you consistently ignore all of the other metrics important for judging the health of a company and its capacity for growth. Whether you look at operating margin, net margin, return on equity, return on assets, or virtually any other metric used to judge the effectiveness of management, SWA is performing atrociously, and has been for some time. Yes, SWA has plenty of money sitting around (by airline standards). But the problem is that management doesn't seem to have the slightest clue what to do with all of that cash to create shareholder value. Shareholders would be smarter to put their money in a CD rather than giving it to Gary to sit on for the next decade. And just as the shareholders get screwed by Gary's inability to produce value, so do the employees get screwed by career stagnation.

He likes to talk about those things because they are true, much to your dismay.

I get that fact that you don't like Gary Kelly, but he's performing atrociously? That's pretty funny.

Let's see, he's continued with year over year profits. More than 40 of them if I'm not mistaken.

He has the cleaniest/strongest balance sheet among his peers, actually has for several years.

A company that owns out-right more than 2/3rds of their fleet. Unheard of in this industry.

Now let's turn an eye toward shareholder value...

He's pushing for 15% ROIC and Wall Street is paying attention. His initives are getting traction. Full 800's, adding more seats on the 700's, AAI transistion/codeshare, big addition of ancillary revenue (early boarding fees is off the chart), etc, etc.

My shareholder value is up over 50%. I think I've done slightly better than your idea of a CD, but that doesn't fit in well with your 'anti-GK' rhetoric. Don't let your BS actually get in the way of the facts.

I'm not going to sit here and bash the AAI product. It was a 'different' product than SW. Doesn't make it any better or any worse. And I agree that there were plenty that liked the Business Class. But that Business Class caused pain in the Coach class. Overall, it worked pretty well. Airtran just didn't have the cash on hand to take it to the next level. That's why the BOD pulled the parachute on the operation. Gary gave them a nice return on their investment as well, and if you were a large AAI shareholder you would have walked away with a nice premium on what was the current price.

I'm not saying Gary is perfect or hasn't made some bad choices, but I'm not sure what metric you are comparing his performance as a CEO. I would say he is above average in every regard. I'd put him in the top 5% of airline CEOs. You just don't like the fact that he bought your airline.

 

[HowardBorden]

The Southwest that you describe is yesterday's news. No business leaders are trying to mimic SWA today. SWA is the poster child for failing to deliver shareholder value.

In 2007, Seeking Alpha was the recipient of Forbes Best of the Web Award and was selected by Kiplinger's as its pick for Best Investment Informant. In 2011 Seeking Alpha was listed as #1 in Inc. Magazine's list of Essential Economic blogs. This is what they have to say about LUV stock in December 0f 2012:

"Southwest Airlines (LUV) is the largest and most well-managed airline in the United States. The company has 40 years of history and is known for its low-fare, high-quality air service. The company is repeatedly cited in case histories in business school for being an exceptionally well-run company. The stock price has shown great strength over the previous quarter. The company is likely to grow earnings, and analysts remain upbeat on forward growth."

Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong, who knows but I definitely feel better about believing their assessment about the relative merits of LUV stock than yours.

Southwest Airlines Is The Best Transportation Play
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1065941-southwest-airlines-is-the-best-transportation-play

 

[ATLplt]

B) trying to convince 6 anonymous AT hard liners.

You think those guys are hard liners? What does that make you, the voice of reason? Hate to tell you, Wave, but many of the 1200 or so guys coming over next year share similar views as the "hard liners". Ask someone who lost the seat, base, and aircraft they bid and were awarded about how great Southwest is.

Just know C) if you're from another carrier and GK loses his mind again and decides to spend the profit of our collective efforts buying you, don't expect as good a deal as AT got.

If another airline gets caught up in this mess I'd be willing to bet they take it all the way to arbitration. Who the hell would be stupid enough to accept a deal after watching what happened to us? Nobody.

 

[Phlintstone]

Everybody knows the following:
1) A great guy and a great pilot that interviewed and got hired at SWA.

2) A person who is personality challenged and aeronautically disfunctional who interview with SWA and got hired

3) A great guy and a great pilot who had all the tickets with all the type ratings who interviewed and did not get hired.

Since you work at SWA you are #1 or #2. You be the judge.

Guess what? You are just like every other airline. Every HR department has their nuances and quirks. Just because they told you that they hired "only the best" when you showed up to day 1 of initial training does not make it so. If you believed that line then you are probably leaning towards the #2 example above.

If you can look at yourself in the mirror and laugh at yourself then you have enough modesty to realize that SWA is not infallible. SWA needs to look at the procedures and practices and evolve into an airline that will continue to grow in technology and the aircraft they fly and the way that they operate.

If you continue to believe that you are the "best of the best" you will continue down the primrose path to your own destruction. Your choice.

So true! I know pilots at every major US airline and freight companies. As a general rule, all are the same and none are better than any other. When anyone gets to our level, there are very little differences whether you come from the military, civilian or the 5 O'clock Charlie school of flying.

IMO, one of the reasons SWA guys get bashed since many of them believe the Kool-Aid speech about them being the best and are stupid enough to voice it.

Phred

 

[freightdogfred]

In 2007, Seeking Alpha was the recipient of Forbes Best of the Web Award and was selected by Kiplinger's as its pick for Best Investment Informant. In 2011 Seeking Alpha was listed as #1 in Inc. Magazine's list of Essential Economic blogs. This is what they have to say about LUV stock in December 0f 2012:

"Southwest Airlines (LUV) is the largest and most well-managed airline in the United States. The company has 40 years of history and is known for its low-fare, high-quality air service. The company is repeatedly cited in case histories in business school for being an exceptionally well-run company. The stock price has shown great strength over the previous quarter. The company is likely to grow earnings, and analysts remain upbeat on forward growth."

Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong, who knows but I definitely feel better about believing their assessment about the relative merits of LUV stock than yours.

Southwest Airlines Is The Best Transportation Play
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1065941-southwest-airlines-is-the-best-transportation-play

Maybe you should call Warren Buffett, he seems to disagree

http://www.warrenbuffett.com/does-warren-buffett-think-youll-make-money-with-airline-stocks/

 

[scoreboardII]

The Southwest that you describe is yesterday's news. No business leaders are trying to mimic SWA today. SWA is the poster child for failing to deliver shareholder value.


."

Really?

Motley fool:


The airline industry has a singular talent for draining the pockets of well-intentioned investors. Highly leveraged balance sheets and bankruptcies are the norm. Significant labor costs and unpredictable jet fuel prices wreak havoc on variable costs. Yet some airlines generate solid returns quarter after quarter. Alaska Air Group (NYSE: ALK ) , Ryanair (NASDAQ: RYAAY ) , Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV ) , and Copa Holdings (NYSE: CPA )

Very little has been in the news lately about the best-performing airline in recent history, Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV). With the company set to report its first quarter results on April 25, I thought a little reminder about this great company was in order.

<H2>Key Statistics

Forward P/E (1 yr):10.71P/S (ttm):0.56Ex-Dividend Date:05-Mar-13
? More Key Statistics

Analysts


Annual EPS Est (Dec-13) :0.98Quarterly EPS Est (Mar-13) :0.03Mean Recommendation*:2.6PEG Ratio (5 yr expected):0.45
* (Strong Buy) 1.0 - 5.0 (Sell)

</H2>






Yep, SWA sucks. Not.

 

[HowardBorden]

"Maybe you should call Warren Buffett, he seems to disagree."

Warren is a very smart guy and he says this: ?the worst sort of business is one that grows rapidly, requires significant capital to engender the growth, and then earns little or no money.? In short he doesn't think ANY airline is a good financial bet to invest in. He does of course own NetJets though and one could argue that it is not an airline per se.

My point was smart and savvy investment gurus say that LUV stock is a good bet if you want to own airline stock. I put a lot more confidence in their opinions than those of PCL_128 who claims it's a turd. Of course he has no conflict of interest when offering that opinion.

 

[SWA/FO]

Shareholders would be smarter to put their money in a CD rather than giving it to Gary to sit on for the next decade.

Insert any airline in the above statement. I remember AT stock going from $20 a share to $4....... All airline stock sucks.

Southwest was never for sale..... Air Tran was FOR SALE. Air Tran was bought. Two different CEOs from Air Tran tried to convince 3 Different SWA CEO's to buy them. Sure Tranny offered a superior product for the small fleet it had. But they "couldn't do anymore, went as far as they could" to quote a former CEO.

As in: We can't give our Pilots, Flight Attendants the raises they are after. As in: the backup plan to shut down the airline in the event of a strike and return planes to their lessors.

How is the job search going PCL? I mean you have a master plan not to come over right? Will you still comeback to this website and bebate us all for years to come, while you work at your new career? :cartman:

 

[freightdogfred]

"Maybe you should call Warren Buffett, he seems to disagree."

Warren is a very smart guy and he says this: ?the worst sort of business is one that grows rapidly, requires significant capital to engender the growth, and then earns little or no money.? In short he doesn't think ANY airline is a good financial bet to invest in. He does of course own NetJets though and one could argue that it is not an airline per se.

My point was smart and savvy investment gurus say that LUV stock is a good bet if you want to own airline stock. I put a lot more confidence in their opinions than those of PCL_128 who claims it's a turd. Of course he has no conflict of interest when offering that opinion.

I agree. I'm an employee i guess, acquired not hired, all that BS and I always pull 100% for my new masters, like a good sled dog should. I buy about 200$ worth of LUV stock every paycheck, I'm betting long term and am actually going to increase my monthly withholding to purchase stock. I'm also going to support mgmt 100% to keep costs down, to include plans to play hardball with those whiny SWAPA pilots.
i really don't need the money, i'm just here to meet chicks.

 

[MCDU]

Easy tough guy. I'm not an Air Tran guy. But I do understand your anger. You paid for your job. Air Tran guys didn't!
And your wrong, I do think you're a ********************ing *************************! You're just another chicken ******************** coward hiding behind a keyboard!

Airtran, Valujet was the poster child for PFT. Pay to fly an old DC9. Not until this dirtbag company started crashing planes and could not find pilots were they forced to buy a tiny airline and changed their name. This company was built on blood and pilots that crossed and pilots that paid. Not a proud legacy.

M

 

[kwick]

For a new hire or junior pilot, the career expectations at SW are probably less than most other major airlines. 20 years to upgrade isn't much of a career to look forward to.

In another merger, expect the other shoe to fall, you will be giving up years of
seniority because of the career stagnation. Or you will be stapled to the bottom,
of another list.


The arbitrator won't have to look very hard either, and your buddy GK will be on the beach with Horton and Lorenzo. Good Luck!

What goes around, comes around! and I'm sure you'll get a lot of sympathy.