Southwest Line on Credit?

[DCitrus9]

Here are some facts: At my time of hire at Airtran I had coworkers get hired by SW with the same experience, same age, etc as me. I went to Airtran and never updated my app, yet was called for an interview within a year, which I declined. SW was simply not that attractive to me, or many other pilots.
I am now placed next to former FOs and students of mine on the SL. One guy within 100 # of me was a former student and got his first commuter job after I was a Captain at AirTran.

 

[maxblast72]

Today's winners are tomorrows losers. United pilots have been a little quieter over the last decade haven't they ..... Hmmmm ?

I don't know if I would compare United 2000 and Southwest 2013. Southwest's current balance sheet is stronger than United's even in 2000 not to mention that Southwest has zero pension obligations to fund. I also doubt Gary Kelly will be giving the Southwest pilots a "home run" contract similar to United's 2000 contract. I see Gary Kelly and SWAPA agreeing to "doubles" over the next few contract cycles. Doubles can also produce runs and usually results in less strikeouts.

One of ours left this week for US Air. How does that fit into your 'SWA is the better airline' argument ?

Wow, a 39 year old 3rd year pay AirTran FO that lives in CLT left to go to USAirways. I had a new hire classmate of mine here at AirTran leave for Southwest 2 months before he would have upgraded (in our 30th month at AirTran). I also had a 13 year AirTran captain buddy of mine apply to SWA in the fall of 2008 because he was nervous about AirTran filing bankruptcy.

For the record, I never applied to Southwest (nor have a B737 type rating) but appreciate the Southwest's financial stability considering the risks that are out there in today's economy/central bank money printing frenzy (that could lead to energy price inflation).

 

[fletch717]

I don't know if I would compare United 2000 and Southwest 2013. Southwest's current balance sheet is stronger than United's even in 2000 not to mention that Southwest has zero pension obligations to fund. I also doubt Gary Kelly will be giving the Southwest pilots a "home run" contract similar to United's 2000 contract. I see Gary Kelly and SWAPA agreeing to "doubles" over the next few contract cycles. Doubles can also produce runs and usually results in less strikeouts.

Wow, a 39 year old 3rd year pay AirTran FO that lives in CLT left to go to USAirways. I had a new hire classmate of mine here at AirTran leave for Southwest 2 months before he would have upgraded (in our 30th month at AirTran). I also had a 13 year AirTran captain buddy of mine apply to SWA in the fall of 2008 because he was nervous about AirTran filing bankruptcy.

For the record, I never applied to Southwest (nor have a B737 type rating) but appreciate the Southwest's financial stability considering the risks that are out there in today's economy/central bank money printing frenzy (that could lead to energy price inflation).

For the record max....... If SWA had a "Tokyo rose" at AT it would be YOU.

 

[jonjuan]

Here are some facts: At my time of hire at Airtran I had coworkers get hired by SW with the same experience, same age, etc as me. I went to Airtran and never updated my app, yet was called for an interview within a year, which I declined. SW was simply not that attractive to me, or many other pilots.
I am now placed next to former FOs and students of mine on the SL. One guy within 100 # of me was a former student and got his first commuter job after I was a Captain at AirTran.

And I'm sure there are some 20+ year retired Mil pilots originally hired at SWA slotted in behind you. what's your point?

 

[dicko]

I don't know if I would compare United 2000 and Southwest 2013. Southwest's current balance sheet is stronger than United's even in 2000 not to mention that Southwest has zero pension obligations to fund. I also doubt Gary Kelly will be giving the Southwest pilots a "home run" contract similar to United's 2000 contract. I see Gary Kelly and SWAPA agreeing to "doubles" over the next few contract cycles. Doubles can also produce runs and usually results in less strikeouts.

Wow, a 39 year old 3rd year pay AirTran FO that lives in CLT left to go to USAirways. I had a new hire classmate of mine here at AirTran leave for Southwest 2 months before he would have upgraded (in our 30th month at AirTran). I also had a 13 year AirTran captain buddy of mine apply to SWA in the fall of 2008 because he was nervous about AirTran filing bankruptcy.

For the record, I never applied to Southwest (nor have a B737 type rating) but appreciate the Southwest's financial stability considering the risks that are out there in today's economy/central bank money printing frenzy (that could lead to energy price inflation).

Go to bed Max. Nobody asked you if you applied at SWA, nor was the subject of the central bank or economy raised. Your opinion has become worthless on the subject of 'mergers' . Pizza parties perhaps, but not mergers.

You're a decent dude who was way out of his depth and outplayed. I'm hoping that the prevalent "Tokyo Rose" analogy isn't true.

 

[waveflyer]

So what's the deal over there-
Everybody at AT has to be pissed and feel like they got screwed or they'll be browbeaten into silence by the aggro crowd?

 

[PCL_128]

I don't know if I would compare United 2000 and Southwest 2013. Southwest's current balance sheet is stronger than United's even in 2000 not to mention that Southwest has zero pension obligations to fund.

You love to talk about the balance sheet and the lack of pension obligations, but you consistently ignore all of the other metrics important for judging the health of a company and its capacity for growth. Whether you look at operating margin, net margin, return on equity, return on assets, or virtually any other metric used to judge the effectiveness of management, SWA is performing atrociously, and has been for some time. Yes, SWA has plenty of money sitting around (by airline standards). But the problem is that management doesn't seem to have the slightest clue what to do with all of that cash to create shareholder value. Shareholders would be smarter to put their money in a CD rather than giving it to Gary to sit on for the next decade. And just as the shareholders get screwed by Gary's inability to produce value, so do the employees get screwed by career stagnation.

 

[DCitrus9]

My point? I was responding to Wave et al that claim It took longer to get hired at SW and /or that we got too much in this deal. I simply gave some facts that may show their level of b.s. They think if they repeat it enough it will be true, but it is not.
Retired mil guy? He is on his second career and has benies and a pension, his level on the seniority list is hardly relevant.

 

[dicko]

Please show your work! Are you a FOQA gatekeeper at BOTH airlines? Where are you coming up with this data? Is it published somewhere? I've never seen FOQA data from multiple airlines published side by side ANYWHERE! If you have access to this data, please share it with the rest of us. Other than factual data to back up your assertions I will assume you are just making it up.

Are you even an airline pilot ? "Please share it with us ?" ..... If you're interested then I suggest you contact the gatekeepers or Flight Ops and find out for yourself.

Both airlines have access to each others FOQA data. Publish it on FI yourself. Farkin Muppet..

 

[bluesideup1]

My friend from A/T was a two year captain when he decided to come to Southwest. It wasn't easy as he lived in ATL but after looking at all the advantages that SW had over AT it became an easy choice. Airtran pilots had about 400 applications on file or around a quarter of your pilot group all had apps in at SW prior to the purchase. NONE of the Southwest pilots had apps in at Airtran!

To all those at A/T that thought arbitration would have saved them from their horrible fate of being bought by one of the most successful airline companies in the world. It wouldn't have. Even the arbitrators in the dispute between the mechanics realized that the two were not equal careers. That is why the mechanics from A/T were made to give up anywhere from 2-3 years seniority to come over to the Southwest side.

In all honesty can you say with a straight face that Airtran formerly Value Jet was in even the same class as Southwest? How many books have been written about Airtran? How many college professors used airtran as examples of how to run a successful business? How many Business leaders tried to mimic Airtran to run their business successfully? Let me help you with those answers. NONE!

When you told people you worked for Airtran how many times did you have to explain who the hell Airtran was? Don't worry as a new Southwest purchase you will never have to do that again as most people will now smile at you and say how much they love Southwest.

Our contract was head and shoulders above yours prior to the merger and strike vote of 99%. It took over 30+ years to get that contract and to think that you can just walk in and enjoy the blood and sweat that went into getting where we are today just by saying Airtran was equal berates all those who stived to get us were we are today. I am not saying that someday Airtran wouldn't be where we are today but before Southwest bought Airtran it wasn't even close.

 

[waveflyer]

I was going to make a similar argument, and then I realized -A) it's long over.
And B) trying to convince 6 anonymous AT hard liners on FI is pretty pointless-

Just know C) if you're from another carrier and GK loses his mind again and decides to spend the profit of our collective efforts buying you, don't expect as good a deal as AT got.

 

[PCL_128]

In all honesty can you say with a straight face that Airtran formerly Value Jet was in even the same class as Southwest?

Nope. Our product was far superior.

How many books have been written about Airtran? How many college professors used airtran as examples of how to run a successful business? How many Business leaders tried to mimic Airtran to run their business successfully? Let me help you with those answers. NONE!

The Southwest that you describe is yesterday's news. No business leaders are trying to mimic SWA today. SWA is the poster child for failing to deliver shareholder value.

When you told people you worked for Airtran how many times did you have to explain who the hell Airtran was?

Never. The response was usually "Oh, I LOVE AirTran! I ride on you guys whenever I can!"

Don't worry as a new Southwest purchase you will never have to do that again as most people will now smile at you and say how much they love Southwest.

Actually, since the merger was announced, the typical comment from one of our customers has been "I'm sorry to see AirTran go. I'm going to have to start using Delta. Can't stand that no assigned seating thing on Southwest."

 

[Just thinking]

Everybody knows the following:
1) A great guy and a great pilot that interviewed and got hired at SWA.

2) A person who is personality challenged and aeronautically disfunctional who interview with SWA and got hired

3) A great guy and a great pilot who had all the tickets with all the type ratings who interviewed and did not get hired.

Since you work at SWA you are #1 or #2. You be the judge.

Guess what? You are just like every other airline. Every HR department has their nuances and quirks. Just because they told you that they hired "only the best" when you showed up to day 1 of initial training does not make it so. If you believed that line then you are probably leaning towards the #2 example above.

If you can look at yourself in the mirror and laugh at yourself then you have enough modesty to realize that SWA is not infallible. SWA needs to look at the procedures and practices and evolve into an airline that will continue to grow in technology and the aircraft they fly and the way that they operate.

If you continue to believe that you are the "best of the best" you will continue down the primrose path to your own destruction. Your choice.

 

[HowardBorden]

Are you even an airline pilot ? "Please share it with us ?" ..... If you're interested then I suggest you contact the gatekeepers or Flight Ops and find out for yourself.

Both airlines have access to each others FOQA data. Publish it on FI yourself. Farkin Muppet..

What a joke! In other words, "I can't publish the data because I don't have it. I am simply making this stuff up as I go."

 

[redflyer65]

You love to talk about the balance sheet and the lack of pension obligations, but you consistently ignore all of the other metrics important for judging the health of a company and its capacity for growth. Whether you look at operating margin, net margin, return on equity, return on assets, or virtually any other metric used to judge the effectiveness of management, SWA is performing atrociously, and has been for some time. Yes, SWA has plenty of money sitting around (by airline standards). But the problem is that management doesn't seem to have the slightest clue what to do with all of that cash to create shareholder value. Shareholders would be smarter to put their money in a CD rather than giving it to Gary to sit on for the next decade. And just as the shareholders get screwed by Gary's inability to produce value, so do the employees get screwed by career stagnation.

He likes to talk about those things because they are true, much to your dismay.

I get that fact that you don't like Gary Kelly, but he's performing atrociously? That's pretty funny.

Let's see, he's continued with year over year profits. More than 40 of them if I'm not mistaken.

He has the cleaniest/strongest balance sheet among his peers, actually has for several years.

A company that owns out-right more than 2/3rds of their fleet. Unheard of in this industry.

Now let's turn an eye toward shareholder value...

He's pushing for 15% ROIC and Wall Street is paying attention. His initives are getting traction. Full 800's, adding more seats on the 700's, AAI transistion/codeshare, big addition of ancillary revenue (early boarding fees is off the chart), etc, etc.

My shareholder value is up over 50%. I think I've done slightly better than your idea of a CD, but that doesn't fit in well with your 'anti-GK' rhetoric. Don't let your BS actually get in the way of the facts.

I'm not going to sit here and bash the AAI product. It was a 'different' product than SW. Doesn't make it any better or any worse. And I agree that there were plenty that liked the Business Class. But that Business Class caused pain in the Coach class. Overall, it worked pretty well. Airtran just didn't have the cash on hand to take it to the next level. That's why the BOD pulled the parachute on the operation. Gary gave them a nice return on their investment as well, and if you were a large AAI shareholder you would have walked away with a nice premium on what was the current price.

I'm not saying Gary is perfect or hasn't made some bad choices, but I'm not sure what metric you are comparing his performance as a CEO. I would say he is above average in every regard. I'd put him in the top 5% of airline CEOs. You just don't like the fact that he bought your airline.