Prefbid vs flightline----CDO's

[enuffalready]

Any truth that prefbid does NOT allow segregation of CDO's and regular trips. That means, as is, with prefbid you could be awarded a line with both together. I know most regular line holders hate CDO'S and most CDO holders hate regular 3/4 day trips. Sounds like lose lose and a non starter?

Anyone with info feel free to chime in. Curious..

 

[higney85]

The answer is complicated.

You can have pure CDO lines, pure regular lines, and "hybrid" lines with CDO and reg trips. It depends on the contract for CDO rules, open time constraints, etc. It also depends on how many bidders, bidders actually bidding for CDO's and the layout of pairings (some days have more/less CDO's than others).


Biggest hurdle? Contract language which dictates the programming and trip construction.

Biggest reality to learn "global feasibility". The flying needs to be flown by someone in the end, PBS finds "homes" for the trips, many times to the displeasure of a more senior pilot.

 

[enuffalready]

At LASA, you contract pros know.....we can't be awarded a hybrid line now....correct?

 

[79%N1]

The answer is complicated.

Biggest reality to learn "global feasibility". The flying needs to be flown by someone in the end, PBS finds "homes" for the trips, many times to the displeasure of a more senior pilot.

Flightline pbs does the same finding of homes for all the pairings, but DOES NOT do it at the expense of seniority as does the "global feasibility".

 

[higney85]

Flightline pbs does the same finding of homes for all the pairings, but DOES NOT do it at the expense of seniority as does the "global feasibility".

I'm not at LASA (or XJT for that matter), but am intimately familiar with the PBS program at 9E. As I said, it's ALL about the contract language. If your deal (whenever that occurs..) allows for "hybrids", the next step is limitations of how the hybrids can be designed. The bigger pieces of the puzzle become open time and daily stacking restrictions. With the new rest rules in 2014, there is actually a better leg to stand on if you are negotiating CDO's since the "default" option of CDO's won't even be legal for many CDO pairings created today. In hindsight of the PCL JCBA negotiations was the CDO allowance following a pairing. If PBS has to find a home for CDO's due to stacking, the program will literally work it's way up the seniority ranks to find someone who can do the CDO. This can be after a brutal 4-day since block on a CDO is typically very low. This was fought in negotiations,but something that didn't get cleaned up. It's something that has pilots upset, scheduling concerned (easy sick call targets and hard to cover), and the safety department looking at for the fatigue aspect.

You didn't ask for advice, but I will say that you really need to think about how the program will operate and how you can control it. The only way to do that is strong and in-depth contractual language and pilots directly controlling the PBS program and the pairing generator. If you don't have all 3 of those covered, it can be ugly for the pilot group. Remember, the job of the PBS program is to award work, nothing more. It lowers headcount and solves the "interface conflict" between months. For 9E, the program costed something like $1M at the beginning and about another $1M since in reprogramming. The company made all there money back in the first year, and saves money every year going forward. Don't be fooled, it's a company program, but with pilot control it can work well for both sides. The factor that I haven't mentioned yet, but is on a much higher level that pilots cannot negotiate, is the flying given before the generator gets to create pairings (from the major partner). It's pure junk in/junk out if the aircraft lines of flying are inefficient.

PBS is great for the top 30% in base/seat, OK from 30-60, and the bottom 60-99% will see a decrease in QOL from line bidding. "Build-ups" also cease to exist with a PBS program for those who are a senior reserve/junior line holder bidding for build-ups in a line bidding world.

 

[OCP]

I'm in the bottom 25% at LASA and quality of life is worlds better with PBS than with line bidding. Just for starters, I wouldn't even have a line with line bidding. That said I can actually control some amount of the types of trips I get, and a lot of control of specific days off.

 

[wms]

At lasa prefbid will not mix cdos into a line. You either have a CDO line or a regular line. You choose which type of line on your preferences.

 

[JumpersAway]

Everything you need to know about ExpressJet management and scheduling. If they "can", they "will". This is the exact reason the scheduling section is the thickest in the book. We have to close ALL of the loopholes and write ironclad language in the new CBA. First thing I'm doing when it's offered to us, is highlighting all the "Mays", "Discressions", and "cans"..............

People get into a rythm of CDO's or regular trips. I'm not interrested in flipping my body schedule around to accomodate ExpressJet's lack of ability to properly plan or staff our airline. The ability for this to be done is an automatic "no" vote. I'm done being scheduling's monkey here.

 

[79%N1]

Exactly! The thing where you bid 6 or 8 am reserve, and they call you up at noon and put you "back on rest" so you can now do naps is for the birds!

 

[flynd94]

Exactly! The thing where you bid 6 or 8 am reserve, and they call you up at noon and put you "back on rest" so you can now do naps is for the birds!

That's an easy fix.....call in fatigued if enough of us on both sides (erj/crj) do that then this terrible practice will come to a quick stop.

 

[dojetdriver]

People get into a rythm of CDO's or regular trips. I'm not interrested in flipping my body schedule around to accomodate ExpressJet's lack of ability to properly plan or staff our airline. The ability for this to be done is an automatic "no" vote. I'm done being scheduling's monkey here.

Good point. And just like EVERYTHING else, it's about the work rules!!!!!!

My former company had it in the CBA that you couldn't mix CDO's with other trips, CDO lines had to be PURE CDO's, NOTHING else. Also couldn't be built with more than three in a row, as well as had to be consecutive.

Made for nice "4 on 3 off", or only 2 on so as to accomodate the line build and min days off, consecutive days off, etc.

 

[Redan]

I'm in the bottom 25% at LASA and quality of life is worlds better with PBS than with line bidding. Just for starters, I wouldn't even have a line with line bidding. That said I can actually control some amount of the types of trips I get, and a lot of control of specific days off.

I'm also in the bottom 25% in my seat at LASA. I will agree that QOL is better...sometimes. PBS got me off reserve initially, now I find myself back on reserve along with 30% of the pilots on my list. I've had great schedules a few times. And crummy ones many times. I've seen company provide nice schedules for the entire pilot group a few times. And I've seen them ram it to us several times. I have some control over off days, as long as I don't desire weekends or holidays off. In theory I should be able to swap, drop and trade trips/days off, but in practice the rules are so tight it is maybe viable 10% of the time at best. I've been able to maximize my vacation a few times, and been screwed on vacay months a few times. Including this month, can't really maximize vacay when on surprise reserve. Glad I didn't plan anything definite for vacay, I never do as I've learned better the hard way. And I'm told the vacation credits are the reason I was awarded reserve while junior pilots got lines! This is the product of company utilizing the incredible latitude they enjoy in work rules to manipulate line and pairing creation/implementation. Company is virtually free to do just about whatever they want at their whim which leaves us with completely unpredictable schedules from one month to another. And all the bickering over bidding systems is sweet music to their ears.

It really has become comical to me to hear this incessant yada yada yada about bidding systems, when it is so completely obvious that IT'S THE WORK RULES STUPID!.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Post of the YEAR!!!

 

[gator_hater]

As for the hybrid lines, there have been a few times when they would have benefited my family's needs for a month. I could have bid CDOs for a week when the wife was going out of town and hung out at camp grandma so the kids could have a night watchman instead of suffering through an entire month of them. Or, I could have gotten a schedule with four days off either side of three CDOs with the rest of the month 3-4 day trips. But, since hybrids are a non-starter I was on reserve.

They should be allowed ONLY if agreed to by the pilot and with a minimum of three days off either side.

 

[sinkrate]

At lasa prefbid will not mix cdos into a line. You either have a CDO line or a regular line. You choose which type of line on your preferences.

Don't ever, ever let your MEC give that up. If it isn't a contract requirement it should be. PCL did and the pilot group hates it.

Initially, it was a technology issue. The first PBS systems could not build lines with both CDO's and regular trips. The math problem was too large and the computers of the day could not solve it in the time frame required. With 64 bit processers and gobs of memory that problem is solved. Some of the old PBS programs still can not mix the two types of trips in one line but most of the new ones can - if you let managment do it.

No two PBS programs are the same. In fact, the 'engines' they use are radically different. Some use logic statements to build lines, some use matrix algebra, some build the lines sequentially and then use crude tools to stuff leftover flying back on the lines. Your PBS committee should be familiar with what you have.

When used right PBS is a great thing. NW and AmericaWest pilots loved their systems. When used wrong it is awfull. PCL's and United's systems start with the same 'off the shelf' base program. The PCL pilots loved theirs before it got screwed up and the United pilots hated theirs. Same system. It is what you negotiate and how managment uses it. Unfortunately the biggest obstacle is managment usually has no clue how to use PBS - and the pilots suffer for it.

 

[Nevets]

Any truth that prefbid does NOT allow segregation of CDO's and regular trips. That means, as is, with prefbid you could be awarded a line with both together. I know most regular line holders hate CDO'S and most CDO holders hate regular 3/4 day trips. Sounds like lose lose and a non starter?

Anyone with info feel free to chime in. Curious..

I don't know. I think that according to your MEC, that is the case with the generic system they looked at. But my understanding is that flight line also could not segregate at first. As long as there is contract language that dictates this, it can be changed, just as flight line was customized from its generic version. Assuming, of course, that the premise is true.

 

[Speedtape]

I don't know. I think that according to your MEC, that is the case with the generic system they looked at. But my understanding is that flight line also could not segregate at first. As long as there is contract language that dictates this, it can be changed, just as flight line was customized from its generic version. Assuming, of course, that the premise is true.

The off the shelf version could not build pure CDO lines. Why? Because no existing customer did CDOs. Building pure CDO line was a negotiated feature, and it cost for the programming.

Contract language does not guarantee customizations can be accomplished. Why? The vendor cannot always program requests because it could be in conflict with the system logic and capability. Then, there are somethings that can be customized, but the cost outweighs the benefit.

From information floating around, the awarding of pure CDO lines cannot be programmed into the line awarding in SmartPref because of the conflict with system logic. If CDOs are mixed with regular trips, as a Pinnacle pilot stated in an earlier post, it would be a disaster. Why? Because globalization would use them as line fillers to many pilots that would not want to fly CDOs. It would enhance the ability to drive everyone to minimum days off because they are smaller pieces that would be awarded last. No one should want that!

 

[higney85]

The off the shelf version could not build pure CDO lines. Why? Because no existing customer did CDOs. Building pure CDO line was a negotiated feature, and it cost for the programming.

Contract language does not guarantee customizations can be accomplished. Why? The vendor cannot always program requests because it could be in conflict with the system logic and capability. Then, there are somethings that can be customized, but the cost outweighs the benefit.

From information floating around, the awarding of pure CDO lines cannot be programmed into the line awarding in SmartPref because of the conflict with system logic. If CDOs are mixed with regular trips, as a Pinnacle pilot stated in an earlier post, it would be a disaster. Why? Because globalization would use them as line fillers to many pilots that would not want to fly CDOs. It would enhance the ability to drive everyone to minimum days off because they are smaller pieces that would be awarded last. No one should want that!

The 9E system is great for CDO holders (pure CDO lines), but hell for line holders since its paired to global feasibility.

 

[Nevets]

The off the shelf version could not build pure CDO lines. Why? Because no existing customer did CDOs. Building pure CDO line was a negotiated feature, and it cost for the programming.

Contract language does not guarantee customizations can be accomplished. Why? The vendor cannot always program requests because it could be in conflict with the system logic and capability. Then, there are somethings that can be customized, but the cost outweighs the benefit.

From information floating around, the awarding of pure CDO lines cannot be programmed into the line awarding in SmartPref because of the conflict with system logic. If CDOs are mixed with regular trips, as a Pinnacle pilot stated in an earlier post, it would be a disaster. Why? Because globalization would use them as line fillers to many pilots that would not want to fly CDOs. It would enhance the ability to drive everyone to minimum days off because they are smaller pieces that would be awarded last. No one should want that!

This is not true. For example, the generic version of smartpref was not able to account for our floating reserve lines. It was reprogrammed so that now you just select the box for FLRs and now it allows you to bid those lines. Same can be done with CDOs, check the box if you want to bid one of those lines or leave it unchecked if you don't.