Jetblue Counts Profit Sharing TWICE in Pay Review

[linepilot]

 

[B6Busdriver]

JetBlue lies.

 

[Smarta$$]

Hard to take you serious without any specifics or details.

 

[Dizel8]

It's a bit of a convoluted tale.

 

[J32driver]

Hard to take you serious without any specifics or details.

Not if you are paying attention!

We've decided that industry average retirement is a 13% 401k (with no required input from employee), and then profit sharing on top of the 401k.

Bluejet says you are only 3% behind your peers because you get a 5% match plus 5% profit sharing for a total of 10%. (For those of you that are math challenged, that makes us 30% short of our peers... not 3%).

Ok... so if we get 10% 401k, we have ZERO profit sharing. Bluejet says... oh no, we give you 5% guarenteed profit sharing!

Which is it?
10% 401k with ZERO profit sharing
or
5% 401k with 5% profit sharing.

The bluejet is playing "3 card Monty" and wants you to believe that you get a 401k that is only 3% behind your peers, AND that you get GUARANTEED (is that in writing?) profit sharing of 5% too!

The Bluejet isn't being truthful!

 

[Smarta$$]

What does that have to do with the pay review per the original post?

Your 3% vs. 30% is misleading. If we currently get a 10% match, are we actually getting a 100% match by your logic?

The original post is still useless without more NEW information. The 3 card Monte game is well known and if anyone falls for it, they are to stupid to vote or have an opinion. Yes, some pilots are that stupid.

 

[airbaker]

What does that have to do with the pay review per the original post?

Your 3% vs. 30% is misleading. If we currently get a 10% match, are we actually getting a 100% match by your logic?

The original post is still useless without more NEW information. The 3 card Monte game is well known and if anyone falls for it, they are to stupid to vote or have an opinion. Yes, some pilots are that stupid.

No, you're logic is off. You can't simply shift a decimal point to prove your point. Using your logic train it would work out to 3% vs 30% equals peer set average match of 13% vs 130%. 100% match - 130% match still equals 30%.

Or you could simply divide 13/10....what does your calculator say? Subtract that by 1.0. Take that and multiply by 100. That's your answer. We are 30% behind our peers in retirement.

Put it this way, if your 4.0% mortgage just reset and doubled to 8.0%, would you say, "no biggie, my mortgage only went up 4%" Or would you say, "#$%!, my mortgage just doubled (200%)!! Now I can't afford my payment!"

BTW, I get what you're trying to say with the 3% vs 30% argument, but sematics are important when we try to articulate how gaping our retirement shortfall is compared to our "peers"...especially if you project that shortfall out a couple of decades. A healthy 6-figure shortfall is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Lake Alice]

Actually BDO stated industry average is 18%.

Jetblue stated they never agreed to 18% so industry average to them is 13%.

Once again thank you 1193.

 

[Smarta$$]

No, you're logic is off. You can't simply shift a decimal point to prove your point. Using your logic train it would work out to 3% vs 30% equals peer set average match of 13% vs 130%. 100% match - 130% match still equals 30%.

Or you could simply divide 13/10....what does your calculator say? Subtract that by 1.0. Take that and multiply by 100. That's your answer. We are 30% behind our peers in retirement.

Put it this way, if your 4.0% mortgage just reset and doubled to 8.0%, would you say, "no biggie, my mortgage only went up 4%" Or would you say, "#$%!, my mortgage just doubled (200%)!! Now I can't afford my payment!"

BTW, I get what you're trying to say with the 3% vs 30% argument, but sematics are important when we try to articulate how gaping our retirement shortfall is compared to our "peers"...especially if you project that shortfall out a couple of decades. A healthy 6-figure shortfall is nothing to sneeze at.

Sorry. When the company says that we are behind in company match by 3%, and you say we are behind by 30%, then you must be saying that to match industry standard we would need to take our current 10% and add an additional 30% salary match to it. 10%+30% for a total of 40%.

Don't get me wrong, sounds good to me.. we might be slightly above our peers though. Otherwise, you are intermingling two different methods of looking at the numbers.

Is 13% 30% higher than 10%? Yes. But the 3% number is clearly in reference to a 3% salary match....

You still haven't answered the important part. What is new with the pay review that shows a double counting...

I'm sure its there, but want to see it...

 

[Smarta$$]

Actually BDO stated industry average is 18%.

Jetblue stated they never agreed to 18% so industry average to them is 13%.

Once again thank you 1193.

On this, I agree 100%.

 

[J32driver]

Is 13% 30% higher than 10%? Yes. But the 3% number is clearly in reference to a 3% salary match....

Congratulations! Your thought process has been successfully "managed" by F&H.

They WANT you to think of the number "3". Because the number "30" should be downright scary, and they don't want that at all. Just be calm... it is only 3%.

You make $100,000... $10,000 goes into your 401k.
Industry average Pilot B makes $100,000... $13,000 goes into the 401k.

Pilot B's 401k had 30% more $ placed into it than yours did.

Twisting this into only a 3% short fall is just an F&H Jedi mind trick. It is designed to stump the stupid people that won't think for themselves.

 

[Stanky]

Sorry. When the company says that we are behind in company match by 3%, and you say we are behind by 30%, then you must be saying that to match industry standard we would need to take our current 10% and add an additional 30% salary match to it. 10%+30% for a total of 40%.

Don't get me wrong, sounds good to me.. we might be slightly above our peers though. Otherwise, you are intermingling two different methods of looking at the numbers.

Is 13% 30% higher than 10%? Yes. But the 3% number is clearly in reference to a 3% salary match....

You still haven't answered the important part. What is new with the pay review that shows a double counting...

I'm sure its there, but want to see it...

Okay, I see that you're confused. Let me try to help.

I drink 10 glasses of blue juice.

You drink 13 glasses of blue juice, and then run around and tell everyone that the blue juice here is so much better than the blue juice was at Mesa, Trans States, Gojets, Eagle or wheever you came from. The fact is, that you still drank 30% more blue juice than I did. It's not an interptetation, a nuance, or a guess. It's a fact. Math doesn't lie.

Real airline pilots (the guys who show up on time, shave, read the checklist, follow SOP, leave their skateboard at home, put their cellphone down during taxi, act professional, and try to raise the bar) understand this.

Too many blue glove SJS people at jetBlue don't, which is why we have the worst work rules, insurance, retirement, legal and merger protections, crew meals, rest rules, and the best free pizza, of any airline in our present peerset.

We are easily the dumbest pilots that I've ever been associated with.

Go jumpseat on United, Delta, Fedex, UPS or any other real airline and see if they can help you with the math.

Idiot.

 

[Smarta$$]

Can you tell me what 13 minus 10 is?

 

[B6Busdriver]

Can you tell me what 13 minus 10 is?

Really? That's your counter argument. Maybe this makes more sense to you....

Dave has a bag with 13 lollies in it and little Robbie has a bag with 10 lollies in it. Who has more lollies and by what %???

Answer: Dave has 30% more. Get it? If it's just 3% then let's just add 3% to your mortgage.

 

[linepilot]

My fourth grader does word problems like this all the time, but we're talking about a pretty unique group of pilots here so even simple things like fourth grade math become different and strange.

 

[J32driver]

Can you tell me what 13 minus 10 is?

Can you tell me in %, how much bigger is 13 than 10?

This argument is a F&H Jedi mind trick. And you are falling for it, hook, line, and sinker.

 

[Smarta$$]

Really? That's your counter argument. Maybe this makes more sense to you....

Dave has a bag with 13 lollies in it and little Robbie has a bag with 10 lollies in it. Who has more lollies and by what %???

Answer: Dave has 30% more. Get it? If it's just 3% then let's just add 3% to your mortgage.

And how many more Lollies would rob need to equal Dave's?

 

[Smarta$$]

Can you tell me in %, how much bigger is 13 than 10?

This argument is a F&H Jedi mind trick. And you are falling for it, hook, line, and sinker.

It is 30% more. I have acknowledged that in previous posts. More to follow when I have the time.

 

[Smarta$$]

Okay, I see that you're confused. Let me try to help.

I drink 10 glasses of blue juice.

You drink 13 glasses of blue juice, and then run around and tell everyone that the blue juice here is so much better than the blue juice was at Mesa, Trans States, Gojets, Eagle or wheever you came from. The fact is, that you still drank 30% more blue juice than I did. It's not an interptetation, a nuance, or a guess. It's a fact. Math doesn't lie.

Real airline pilots (the guys who show up on time, shave, read the checklist, follow SOP, leave their skateboard at home, put their cellphone down during taxi, act professional, and try to raise the bar) understand this.

Too many blue glove SJS people at jetBlue don't, which is why we have the worst work rules, insurance, retirement, legal and merger protections, crew meals, rest rules, and the best free pizza, of any airline in our present peerset.

We are easily the dumbest pilots that I've ever been associated with.

Go jumpseat on United, Delta, Fedex, UPS or any other real airline and see if they can help you with the math.

Idiot.

I just finally had time to read this post in full. What ********************ing Bull$hit. Since you posted after me, I will quote for you from my previous post (before your post):

"Is 13% 30% higher than 10%? Yes. But the 3% number is clearly in reference to a 3% salary match...."

There is no doubt that on a PERCENTAGE COMPARISON basis, we are 30% (or more) behind on retirement.

My original post regarding 3% vs. 30% was in response to this (note the underlined):

"Bluejet says you are only 3% behind your peers because you get a 5% match plus 5% profit sharing for a total of 10%. (For those of you that are math challenged, that makes us 30% short of our peers... not 3%)."

The problem is that the 3% number and the 30% number are NOT interchangable. You cannot simply say that the 3% number is incorrect, and should be changed to 30%. They are in entirely different contexts and used in two DIFFERENT math formulas.

The 3% figure is used in a unit comparison, where 1 unit=1% of salary matching. This is THE standard unit of evaluating 401k retirement matching. Jetblue deposits 10% of your salary into your 401k. That is 10 units of 1% salary match. Industry average is 13%, or 13 units of 1% salary match.

13-10= a deficit of 3 units of 1% salary matching. (note the addition/subtraction math operation and the context of unit comparison)

The other method is to compare our retirement match on a percentage basis. This method has you compare 10% to 13% as the percentage of increase required to raise our retirememt contribution to standard.

This formula is a multiplication/division formula.

10%*1.3=13% which is an increase of 30%
----------------------------------------------------------------

For the stupid knuckle dragging Apes on here, I have NO problem with either way of representing the numbers. Both are 100% mathematically valid.

However, I have a problem with trying to interchange the numbers by saying 3% is wrong, and should simply be replaced by 30%.

They are to different mathematical formulas, using two different orders of operation and are used in two different contexts.

Period.

We are 3% behind on a unit basis, and 30% behind on a percentage basis.

Period.

 

[J32driver]

We are 3% behind on a unit basis, and 30% behind on a percentage basis.

Period.

This is nothing but anti-pilot semantics. We are arguing "input" vs. "results". The 401k "input" is 3 points low. The "result" is my 401k has 30% less $ on an annual basis.

The "result" is all that matters.

Period.