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DELTA'S SCOPE RELIEF AND THE 717's?
- Thread starter texman
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General Lee
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There was a similar investment in Brazilian airline GOL. No majority stake, just enough to have some influence in different parts of the world. Probably very smart. I don't see them flying any of our routes. We have more flights to Mexico by far than Aeromexico has to the US. And, we can't fly intra Mexico, but some business travellers probably want to. There you go.
Bye Bye---General Lee
General Lee
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IF the TA passes, then there will be only 125 50 seat RJs left by 2015. That includes Comair. There will be 102 70 seaters, and 223 76 seaters within 3 years, only if the 717s show up. The mainline ratio of domestic flying will go up and stay there too.
Bye Bye---General Lee
whymeworry?
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I remember when CAL bought into COPA. We thought, oh good, an investment in a Cent Am carrier. Should be good for us in terms of developing new markets, right? Then we gave them 30+ NGs and watched as they hired retired CAL pilots into the left seat at $6,000/ mo. In the end they sold their share in COPA without the pilot's getting a penny from our lost flying and airframes.
Don't be fooled. That $65 million is your money. Buuuuuuuuuuuut, if you would rather get a contract where pay only starts upon aircraft movement then far be it from me to comment on your TA. Good luck with that. You're looking at far far less than a "19%" raise once you include all that lost time at the gate.
Don't be fooled. That $65 million is your money. Buuuuuuuuuuuut, if you would rather get a contract where pay only starts upon aircraft movement then far be it from me to comment on your TA. Good luck with that. You're looking at far far less than a "19%" raise once you include all that lost time at the gate.
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General Lee
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What? I get a huge raise when I upgrade to 737 Captain. (I can maybe hold it here in ATL, but I can in NYC if want also) I will go from about $130 an hour to $215. That's more than a 19% raise. There will be plenty of movement and hiring due to the TA, and 148 50 seat RJs retired. If I have to stay at the gate and wait for a push, the beacon will be on, and at that pay rate I'll be happy to wait.
Bye Bye---General Lee
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Twisted Mind
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ultrarunner
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Is Comair going to continue to operate any 50 seaters???
Yes. 16 by this September until their leases are up in 2-3 yrs. They are the oldest 16 left in the DCI fleet. They are going away whether this TA passes or not. But it's only 16. We already lost > 120 50 seaters. We made our contribution!!
Take it for what it's worth...
180ToTheMarker
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Still too many RJs. Mainline fleet count of small narrowbody (smaller than 757s) is 581. Total RJs according to your count is 450. Thats almost 44% of OUR narrowbody flying that is still outsourced. Unacceptable.
Hamfighter
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It is unacceptable. While in no way softening on the scope stance, it did make sense how Scrappy explained it at the meeting yesterday. Delta has these long leases on the 50's that they can't terminate, but they can convert to 70s or 90s and it costs to much to just park them until the leases expire.
I don't mind them swapping to get the most out of them while we're stuck with them, I would just want there to be a clause to not renew leases when they expire (which, I'm fairly certain, there's not).
I don't mind them swapping to get the most out of them while we're stuck with them, I would just want there to be a clause to not renew leases when they expire (which, I'm fairly certain, there's not).
General Lee
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I'm thinking the same, but you can't just wish them all away at once. There are some small cities that can't justify a mainline narrowbody. Using ratios and caps is probably the way to do it.
Bye Bye---General Lee
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Data
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That number is not very representative. Yes, 44% of airframes but what percentage of seats? Or seat miles. Not that I'm arguing for more RJs just pointing out the error of your calculations.
waveflyer
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General-
The line has always been, if we had a crystal ball, we'd have flown the 50 seater ourselves.
Now you're using the unbelievably naive justification again for not flying a -900- "too small, don't want to drag down mainline rates"
Which is it? Was outsourcing 50's a mistake you'd like back, or not?
Those lease transfers are not contingent on them being outsourced are they?
Why wouldn't mainline fly them?
The line has always been, if we had a crystal ball, we'd have flown the 50 seater ourselves.
Now you're using the unbelievably naive justification again for not flying a -900- "too small, don't want to drag down mainline rates"
Which is it? Was outsourcing 50's a mistake you'd like back, or not?
Those lease transfers are not contingent on them being outsourced are they?
Why wouldn't mainline fly them?
Golden Falcon
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BILL LUMBERG
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Gotta debate you on this fact General.....
Highly doubtful this will trigger hiring....too many givebacks in "flexibility" for our workrules counters the whole argument.
180ToTheMarker
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Hamfighter
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I spoke to Scrappy one-on-one after the meeting yesterday (silly nickname, but I feel the most articulate, well-spoken and likable of the group). I said, "If the success of Delta is based on having these 70+ seat RJ's..."
He finished my sentence: "then why don't we fly them?"
He said they actually presented that to management on this TA, but that it it just not economically feasible for us to fly anything smaller than 88 seats because it would cost to much for Delta pilots, fa's and mechanics.
Again, don't like it, but it makes sense.
He finished my sentence: "then why don't we fly them?"
He said they actually presented that to management on this TA, but that it it just not economically feasible for us to fly anything smaller than 88 seats because it would cost to much for Delta pilots, fa's and mechanics.
Again, don't like it, but it makes sense.
RJ Bum
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Sounds like a management problem. Just sayin...
General Lee
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Neither do I, but I can recognize, along with you and some others, that this is a business, and the regionals are getting squeezed to produce more for less compensation. Colgan had to give up their big props because United wanted it done for less. Instead, cap the number and include a ratio that gives mainline the edge.
Bill Lumberg,
The productivity gains via the reserve rules have a Q&A on the Dalpa website that answers some of the supposed "myths" about those new rules. There are two very busy months of the year, July and August, and those two months are what Delta staffs for. The rest of the year DL is over staffed. Until capacity is brought back up, the airline will continue to be so. Hopefully a couple hundred guys will take the early outs, which will help a bit.
Bye Bye---General Lee
waveflyer
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What's so magical about 88 seats??
It doesn't make sense until they show the numbers-
And again- do you guys realize you're selling out regional pilots, whipsawing them against each other to keep wages artificially low, stealing any leverage they may ever have- giving them the "choice" of quit your career or show up and chase the mainline carrot for less?
It doesn't make sense until they show the numbers-
And again- do you guys realize you're selling out regional pilots, whipsawing them against each other to keep wages artificially low, stealing any leverage they may ever have- giving them the "choice" of quit your career or show up and chase the mainline carrot for less?
waveflyer
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Guess what?
I also saw an NBC report on how American made just a few hundred dollars per perfectly executed 767 flight.
No RJ has ever made a profit.
Didn't you guys see how quickly Independence burned through cash with the economics of the RJ.
The -900 is better, but not that much-
It's the network that makes the money. It's all of it in total. The miles. The credit card deals. Funneling passengers onto larger jets that wouldn't make the trip at all if that feed were lost. Delta's business plan does not include making a profit on every single leg flown. It's about working it all to make a profit on the entire very powerful network.
Again, if it's a deal breaker for mainline pilots to fly an aircraft that big- DALPA ought to say no.
Imagine how united has managed to survive without letting go of -900's yet.
If you do this DALPA, you'll make it very hard for them and AA to keep up their scope fight.
I also saw an NBC report on how American made just a few hundred dollars per perfectly executed 767 flight.
No RJ has ever made a profit.
Didn't you guys see how quickly Independence burned through cash with the economics of the RJ.
The -900 is better, but not that much-
It's the network that makes the money. It's all of it in total. The miles. The credit card deals. Funneling passengers onto larger jets that wouldn't make the trip at all if that feed were lost. Delta's business plan does not include making a profit on every single leg flown. It's about working it all to make a profit on the entire very powerful network.
Again, if it's a deal breaker for mainline pilots to fly an aircraft that big- DALPA ought to say no.
Imagine how united has managed to survive without letting go of -900's yet.
If you do this DALPA, you'll make it very hard for them and AA to keep up their scope fight.
BILL LUMBERG
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Joe Kolshak was standing in my cockpit drowning us with his wisdom right after we did TA 46 and the RJ rates appeared on our payscales. So I asked, "when are the big RJs coming to mainline Joe?".....He said "I know this is emotional and yes you sure did come down on your costs but do you know what a Flight Attendant makes at Comair, or a mechanic at ASA?....much cheaper than Mainline.....you have to think economically, it's not just your costs..."
Scrappy, (like the guy) sounds like he's stealing that talking point from the spinmaster himself.......our NC needs to stop defending the status quo and start being our agents for change.
Mookie
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which is by far the most germane fact to this whole argument. good luck DAL dudes.
mookie
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