Aircraft Brokers

[bogi0912]

What are some of your thoughts on brokers. Are they a necessary evil? Or have some of you completed transactions by just using an attorney?

The owner is considering upgrading our aircraft and buying/selling is something I have not been through.

 

[hiflyer731]

The actual transfer of ownership is quite simple. Bill of Sale and Registration need to be filled out and filed. Of course with a higher dollar asset there are more things to consider. Prebuy inspection is a big part and knowing what kind of inspection to do and what kind of "gotchas" to look for can be tough. Odds are you will be purchasing from a broker and there are some shady guys out there that will try to sell you a POS and you won't realize it until everything is complete and you are left with the mess. With a good aviation attorney and a good amount of research about the type of aircraft you are buying and the respectable brokers out there, you should be able to do it yourself.

I personally sold aircraft for almost 4 years. I dealt with mostly piston aircraft but was involved in some turboprop and light jet sales as well. I would feel reasonably comfortable buying or selling a light jet for someone but I would have to do a lot of research about the particular type of jet before making an attempt.

So, if you want to do a lot of research and take on the responsibility of possibly buying a lemon then go for it. Otherwise, finding a good broker you can trust and that has bought/sold several of the type of aircraft you are looking for will help avoid headaches down the line.

 

[bogi0912]

Thanks. I feel comfortable and fairly knowledgeable about the aircraft in question, Falcon 50EX. I am also trying to familliarize with the process of the acquisition. I was just stunned to here the costs of a broker, in the 5 percent range! Seems like a lot of dough for a few weeks of work.

I was hoping to save the owner some cash by getting a good aviation attorney to handle the paperwork side of things. The obvious downside is that everything needs to go smoothly. With such a huge asset I can understand why many go with a broker. I was was hoping to hear about experiences for and against using a broker.

 

[patq1]

What are some of your thoughts on brokers. Are they a necessary evil? Or have some of you completed transactions by just using an attorney?

The owner is considering upgrading our aircraft and buying/selling is something I have not been through.

Get a good broker. In my opinion, you will not be doing your boss any favors by saving him the money. And no, I am not a broker.

 

[ditchpilot]

I have done it with and without a broker and it is much easier with one .
I would at least get a buyers agent (who knows 50's) who would assist yourself buy the 50ex then get a falcon specialist to audit the books on a day rate.

 

[LXApilot]

I've been an aircraft broker on the side for many years and believe that a good aircraft broker can 1) often find off-market aircraft that may be available through their networks, 2) can help you identify and avoid disasters in your aircraft selection. I know of a friend, who didn't use a broker, and now they've got a CE-650 in the MCO service center which has been sitting for two months with corrosion issues and has caused their owner to miss five trips... so far..., 3) 5% is a little high for a broker commission; a good broker should be clear about who they are representing- in your case- he is helping to assist YOU, the purchaser, acquire the airplane and so should be representing your best interest. If a broker is representing both you and the seller, watch out. 5% might be the total of commissions between the selling and acquiring broker. Maybe 2.5% for your side of the equation., 4) the broker can navigate the extensive legal, regulatory and tax issues that might permeate your particular sale. In some cases, this could save hundreds of thousands.

Yes, I am a broker and I do have a Falcon 50EX available if you're interested. PM me. Hope this info helps and good luck operating the Falcon- it's a remarkable airplane.

- CH

 

[Rick James]

I can tell you that a bad broker can put your job/ department in jeopardy. I won't name any particular broker but I had no idea how much damage a third party could do.

 

[StarHustler]

I can tell you that a bad broker can put your job/ department in jeopardy. I won't name any particular broker but I had no idea how much damage a third party could do.

Amen to that Brother!!

 

[gern_blanston]

I know of a friend, who didn't use a broker, and now they've got a CE-650 in the MCO service center which has been sitting for two months with corrosion issues and has caused their owner to miss five trips... so far...

So your friend is an idiot? No pre-purchase?

I can tell you that a bad broker can put your job/ department in jeopardy. I won't name any particular broker but I had no idea how much damage a third party could do.

+1

 

[gret]

Use a broker. Repeat...use a broker as something almost always gets messed up and don't ever buy without a pre-buy.

Check out the references carefully...a bad broker is worse than none at all. There are a handful of good brokerage firms out there that will save you money and aggravation. Jet Effect, Boston Jet Search, AvPro, Leading Edge and a couple of others can do the job.

Fees should be in the range of $100K-$200K at the most. Remember the effort of buying a smaller a/c is just as much for a larger one. Don't use a percentage on the buy side for obvious reasons.

 

[bogi0912]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I think a broker might be the way to go, but his initial offer is too high. 300k!

 

[emspilot 01]

Aircraft Brokers!

I also think using brokers are a big waste of your money. We have bought and sold a lot of airplane charters or buying airplanes in the last twenty years. Doing a good pre-buy inspection is normal in most cases, unless you trust the company selling the airplane. The brokers have made cost of airplane charters or buying planes increase for everyone. It's good money for them having only a cell phone in most cases. The cost of their overhead is very low.

The smart customers will bypass the brokers and go direct to the source!!

 

[emspilot 01]

Aircraft Brokers for Dummies!

I've been an aircraft broker on the side for many years and believe that a good aircraft broker can 1) often find off-market aircraft that may be available through their networks, 2) can help you identify and avoid disasters in your aircraft selection. I know of a friend, who didn't use a broker, and now they've got a CE-650 in the MCO service center which has been sitting for two months with corrosion issues and has caused their owner to miss five trips... so far..., 3) 5% is a little high for a broker commission; a good broker should be clear about who they are representing- in your case- he is helping to assist YOU, the purchaser, acquire the airplane and so should be representing your best interest. If a broker is representing both you and the seller, watch out. 5% might be the total of commissions between the selling and acquiring broker. Maybe 2.5% for your side of the equation., 4) the broker can navigate the extensive legal, regulatory and tax issues that might permeate your particular sale. In some cases, this could save hundreds of thousands.

Yes, I am a broker and I do have a Falcon 50EX available if you're interested. PM me. Hope this info helps and good luck operating the Falcon- it's a remarkable airplane.

- CH

The brokers are very good talkers and salesman....It really does not matter. Everything the broker mentioned would not be needed if you did a pre-buy inspection from a Falcon Service Center or purchased the airplane from them. I think 5% is very easy money for their lack of services. It's money you could use for buying a better airplane.

 

[gret]

Guess you don't like aircraft brokers.

I've never been one and don't want to be, but have bought many airplanes and would never buy one without a broker involved. You have to have a good one, but they earn their money.

Whose going to handle the "like kind exchange" details, perform the market research on what a/c are trading at and where they're headed, keep the deal together when things are falling apart, set the scope of the pre-buy, negotiate the squawks, investigate the damage history, determining the cost of scheduled mtx for the next 18 months, etc.?

The "useless" selling broker would be licking their chops if you show up as a buyer without a qualified advisor.

Do you really want to be blamed if things don't right with the a/c once you bought it? What's in it for you...additional pay? Betting your job on getting this right and making a couple of bucks doesn't make sense. Messing up the "like kind exchange" alone could cost millions.

 

[emspilot 01]

Aircraft Brokers are Useless!

Guess you don't like aircraft brokers.

I've never been one and don't want to be, but have bought many airplanes and would never buy one without a broker involved. You have to have a good one, but they earn their money.

Whose going to handle the "like kind exchange" details, perform the market research on what a/c are trading at and where they're headed, keep the deal together when things are falling apart, set the scope of the pre-buy, negotiate the squawks, investigate the damage history, determining the cost of scheduled mtx for the next 18 months, etc.?

The "useless" selling broker would be licking their chops if you show up as a buyer without a qualified advisor.

Do you really want to be blamed if things don't right with the a/c once you bought it? What's in it for you...additional pay? Betting your job on getting this right and making a couple of bucks doesn't make sense. Messing up the "like kind exchange" alone could cost millions.

I just did a search on Dassault Falcon airplanes. They have a nice website with service centers and airplanes for sale. We have always went back to the factory for most of our major maintenance. I'm sure the company would demo a plane for you or help in the buying processs. I don't understand the need for a broker when dealing with a company that made the airplane. Dassault Falcon has a good reputation and are not going to rip you off.

 

[patq1]

I just did a search on Dassault Falcon airplanes. They have a nice website with service centers and airplanes for sale. We have always went back to the factory for most of our major maintenance. I'm sure the company would demo a plane for you or help in the buying processs. I don't understand the need for a broker when dealing with a company that made the airplane. Dassault Falcon has a good reputation and are not going to rip you off.

It depends on what you call getting ripped off. Dassault, like any other company, is going to make the most money that they can get on a transaction. The buyer's broker is there to get you the best deal as well as to protect you from things that are hidden in the paperwork. Doing a pre-buy inspection doesn't cover all of the things that can bite you. I have seen a deal that was done in good faith by both parties but problems were uncovered years down the road that a good broker would have been able to avoid. You are paying the broker for his knowledge and experience. Obviously you need to make sure that you get a broker with the knowledge and experience to be able to do the job for you.

 

[emspilot 01]

Aircraft Brokers 101....

It depends on what you call getting ripped off. Dassault, like any other company, is going to make the most money that they can get on a transaction. The buyer's broker is there to get you the best deal as well as to protect you from things that are hidden in the paperwork. Doing a pre-buy inspection doesn't cover all of the things that can bite you. I have seen a deal that was done in good faith by both parties but problems were uncovered years down the road that a good broker would have been able to avoid. You are paying the broker for his knowledge and experience. Obviously you need to make sure that you get a broker with the knowledge and experience to be able to do the job for you.

I would go to Dassault Falcon to buy my airplane, unless your getting a kick back from your broker. Did you know it's common for brokers to give a finders fee?? The Dassault Falcon company would either have a plane for sale or know of one they had history in the past. Pre-buy inspection does not cover all things, so buying it from someone that stands behind it would be very smart. Your broker is not going to make things right, but Dassault Falcon would.

I don't know if your confused or getting a kick back from your broker!

 

[patq1]

I don't know why you have so much faith in Dassault to not maximize their profit but I hope that works out for you.

 

[LXApilot]

I would go to Dassault Falcon to buy my airplane, unless your getting a kick back from your broker. Did you know it's common for brokers to give a finders fee?? The Dassault Falcon company would either have a plane for sale or know of one they had history in the past. Pre-buy inspection does not cover all things, so buying it from someone that stands behind it would be very smart. Your broker is not going to make things right, but Dassault Falcon would.

I don't know if your confused or getting a kick back from your broker!

You know that alert and explosion sound that Clark Howard has on his radio program? That's going off in my head right now. Saying that Dassault is not going to rip you off, especially on a pre-owned is like saying that the local car dealership wouldn't rip you off. Ford Pinto or Falcon 50EX, they are the same. Get a broker to represent you- have him protect your side of the deal- he'll find a quality airplane and arrange the escrow, pre-purchase inspection, etc. Then he'll stand behind the airplane after that as well- a good broker doesn't just sell you the airplane and walk away with a check. He'll stay in the deal for the life of the airplane and hopefully sell it for you when you move up to the Global Express.A good broker becomes as much of an extension of your flight department as your MRO shop.

- LXA

 

[gern_blanston]

A good broker becomes as much of an extension of your flight department as your MRO shop.

Said the aircraft broker.