JB pilots just voted to give away......

[Front Office]

Gee, What can possibly go wrong???

 

[Lake Alice]

Can you please explain to everyone on flightinfo what was stopping JB from doing these things last week before this vote?

Absolutely nothing.

The difference now is the Jetblue pilot group agreed to this in writting while also signing away the ability to collectively fight a greivance.

 

[8vATE]

50 Seaters..

Looking around the industry... letting someone fly 50 seaters or less is a minimal threat. 50 seaters and smaller are Dead on Arrival with current and probably higher fuel prices.

And it would take a LOT of aircraft to make 10% of the ASMs with 50 seaters. So all you guys harping about that should take a deep breath.

Now not allowing a "collective" arbitration... That stinks but what did you expect with the "individual employment agreements we have?" We NEED to watch out for US/European ATP harmonization, cabotage, foreign ownership, predatory pricing with competitors, Airline Alliance Monopolies, FAA funding, more crazy "Passenger Rights Laws", criminalization of accident investigations and the elephant in the closet, Airline Industry Carbon Taxes.

Face it... this industry stinks. Should have been a hedge fund manager.

 

[Nevets]

We NEED to watch out for US/European ATP harmonization, cabotage, foreign ownership, predatory pricing with competitors, Airline Alliance Monopolies, FAA funding, more crazy "Passenger Rights Laws", criminalization of accident investigations and the elephant in the closet, Airline Industry Carbon Taxes.

What can jBlu pilots do about any of that?

 

[B6Busdriver]

Gee, What can possibly go wrong???

Nothing says the Bluebelles of the Bluethisphere.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Looking around the industry... letting someone fly 50 seaters or less is a minimal threat. 50 seaters and smaller are Dead on Arrival with current and probably higher fuel prices.

And it would take a LOT of aircraft to make 10% of the ASMs with 50 seaters. So all you guys harping about that should take a deep breath.

Now not allowing a "collective" arbitration... That stinks but what did you expect with the "individual employment agreements we have?" We NEED to watch out for US/European ATP harmonization, cabotage, foreign ownership, predatory pricing with competitors, Airline Alliance Monopolies, FAA funding, more crazy "Passenger Rights Laws", criminalization of accident investigations and the elephant in the closet, Airline Industry Carbon Taxes.

Face it... this industry stinks. Should have been a hedge fund manager.

Face value, what you say is true. Although this is more a foot in the door or the slippery slope. It sets precedence and future negotiations commence from the new bar.

 

[Dizel8]

Can you please explain to everyone on flightinfo what was stopping JB from doing these things last week before this vote?

Nothing did, but here is a simplistic analogy: Nothing prevents someone from trying to break into my house, this however has given the thief, in writing,the right to steal 10% of my stuff.

Much like I have two dogs and a alarm system, I would very much like legally enforceable scope that assures the flying stays in-house.

 

[nimtz]

Looking around the industry... letting someone fly 50 seaters or less is a minimal threat. 50 seaters and smaller are Dead on Arrival with current and probably higher fuel prices.

And it would take a LOT of aircraft to make 10% of the ASMs with 50 seaters. So all you guys harping about that should take a deep breath.

We are harping because numbnuts at legacies bought the same speech years ago. "The company can only get XXX number of those barbie jets." Look how well that worked out. Crack open the barn door and the horse bolts out.

 

[Lake Alice]

Its not simply 50 seats. Its 50 seats OR any size aircraft up to 10% AMS's. Most Jetblue pilots do not know this or don't understand the verbiage. This means any aircraft. The joinder issue is just as big. Legacy carriers signed scope clauses which the parent companies ultimately violated. The unions then sued the companies and won. The Jetblue pilots will be forced to fight their scope clause independently. Has anyone fought an individual grievance against a corporation lately? It is extremely expensive and due to on staff legal teams the issue may be drug out for an eternity. Meanwhile another carrier is taking our jobs and flying as we INDIVIDUALLY fight a legal battle.

 

[LearLove]

goes to show: we pilots are our own worst enemies.

who needs management with dumba$$es like us

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Can you please explain to everyone on flightinfo what was stopping JB from doing these things last week before this vote?

Why execute everyone in Jonestown when you can get them to willingly drink the poison. Why should management pull this when they can dupe their pilots into accepting and condoning it. This now becomes the deaprture point for future negotiations. They offered some rope to the pilots and they accepted it. The pilots have unwittingly and effectively, given it their blessing.

I hope you see whats happening here.

 

[CorpCaptain]

Why execute everyone in Jonestown when you can get them to willingly drink the poison.

I hope you see whats happening here.

+1. Now that was funny.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Fear, its the best tactic and the worst. It didn't work for JBPA. It didn't work for ALPA. And, it just won't work, ever... No matter which direction you go with this, there will always be enough pilots here who will outnumber the outspoken few.

As for the 5 documents-- they weren't the best, but you know what, it was free and no matter how black you paint them, they improve our current contracts. You say the scope clause sucks, well, what did we have before this? Right, none... Some scope is better than no scope.

I think the real test in the future is all of this partnering with overseas carriers, especially into the "Americas"... I can see the LAN/TAM thing because we don't have an aircraft to fly that far south, but wait and see about Avianca-- they do fly a route we can and are flying right now, MCO-BOG...

 

[Lake Alice]

Fear, its the best tactic and the worst. It didn't work for JBPA. It didn't work for ALPA. And, it just won't work, ever... No matter which direction you go with this, there will always be enough pilots here who will outnumber the outspoken few.

As for the 5 documents-- they weren't the best, but you know what, it was free and no matter how black you paint them, they improve our current contracts. You say the scope clause sucks, well, what did we have before this? Right, none... Some scope is better than no scope.

I think the real test in the future is all of this partnering with overseas carriers, especially into the "Americas"... I can see the LAN/TAM thing because we don't have an aircraft to fly that far south, but wait and see about Avianca-- they do fly a route we can and are flying right now, MCO-BOG...

Spoken like someone who has never held another civilian job. Once a poor scope clause has been agreed upon, as the PEA reflects, the chances of going back are slim to none. To further complicate matters once the scope is violated, much like 3A, we have little or no recourse. I appreciate this is your first flying job. I appreciate you got here early and "got yours". The rest of us are still looking to improve this company and make improvements to this industry.

What you call fear the rest of us call reality. Every carrier violates their CBA's. The difference between us and them is other pilot groups have legal recourse. We don't. The 3A litigation is the perfect example of what will happen to us going forward. Jetblue will continue to violate the PEA. In the mean time the pilot group continues to pander to management while our benefits, pay and retirement make little or no forward progress.

Next time you have the opportunity read your PEA and the 5 documents.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Well said, Lake Alice.

Here's an example: AS pilots have the worst scope language I've ever read. Because of that, the Air Group was able to buy and operate Horizon Airlines. Originally using Metroliners and Q200s, the AS pilot group didn't regard them as a threat.

Then QX replaced the Q200s and Metros with Q400s and CRJ7s. All of a sudden we started seeing the "dunkin' donut" in markets that were traditionally serviced by our 737s and MD-80s.

The Company spun it as QX would "pioneer" routes that weren't heavy enough to put jets on with the goal of replacing them with AS jets.

Did that work? Nope. Instead we completely lost cities like RNO to QX. QX Q400s at some times in the day equal or exceed the number of AS 737s in LAX, SMF and other place. Now, they're planning on sending QX Q400s to the state of Alaska.

On top of that, the Air Group recently farmed out the CRJ7s to SKW. The airplanes belong to the Air Group (AG registration numbers), the routes are Alaska routes that used to be flown with 737s and the planes wear AS paint.

The AS rank and file FINALLY woke up to the value of scope language, but that ship sailed 25 years ago.

 

[Lake Alice]

When management says jump Blue Bayou says how high. When management tells Jetblue pilots you will pay more for insurance than any other carrier and you have no say in the matter Jetblue pilots say ok. When management tells Jetblue pilots you won't get an increase in your retirement to industry standard because of ERISA laws Jetblue pilots say ok. When management tells Jetblue pilots management has the right to appoint who ever they want to anyone of your committees Jetblue pilots say ok.
Personally I have no respect for Blue Bayou or any other pilot who allows Jetblue to dictate terms. I truly believe the relationship should go both ways and our pilot group should not be in control of everything but this "direct relationship" is not healthy, sets a bad precedent and is not in any way beneficial for the pilot group. It is however very beneficial for the corporation.
Blue Bayou and others believe management will take care of us much like our insurance, LTD, STD, retirement, schedules, vacation bank, sick bank and scope.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Fear, its the best tactic and the worst. It didn't work for JBPA. It didn't work for ALPA. And, it just won't work, ever... No matter which direction you go with this, there will always be enough pilots here who will outnumber the outspoken few.

As for the 5 documents-- they weren't the best, but you know what, it was free and no matter how black you paint them, they improve our current contracts. You say the scope clause sucks, well, what did we have before this? Right, none... Some scope is better than no scope.

I think the real test in the future is all of this partnering with overseas carriers, especially into the "Americas"... I can see the LAN/TAM thing because we don't have an aircraft to fly that far south, but wait and see about Avianca-- they do fly a route we can and are flying right now, MCO-BOG...

Any "partnering" will be at the loss for JB pilots, yes "Captain" including you!! Did you even read the documents? Obviously not. Congratulations.
Ever read the 3A transcripts from the company side? The same ones who you just voted to give away ANY recourse for you and the rest of the pilot group?? Do you have any idea what "joinder" means? Have an attorney? Why don't you have him read your PEA, the 5 "dickuments" and the 3A transcripts? Then ask INFORMED and much smarter people -Burt, Mona or Barry about how your 4 Horses a$$s sold your career down the river...
Its truly stunning how this pilot group is made up.
Thank you for making the offline commute even more difficult, now I get to try and explain why complete incompetents like you are continuing to dumb down the rest of us at JB....ALPA isn't the complete answer, but if you think "Dave" and the rest of the ELT is "going to take care of us", Darwin is alive and well and wearing a blue shirt.....with 4 stripes....

 

[mejorgy]

Any "partnering" will be at the loss for JB pilots, yes "Captain" including you!! Did you even read the documents? Obviously not. Congratulations.
Ever read the 3A transcripts from the company side? The same ones who you just voted to give away ANY recourse for you and the rest of the pilot group?? Do you have any idea what "joinder" means? Have an attorney? Why don't you have him read your PEA, the 5 "dickuments" and the 3A transcripts? Then ask INFORMED and much smarter people -Burt, Mona or Barry about how your 4 Horses a$$s sold your career down the river...
Its truly stunning how this pilot group is made up.
Thank you for making the offline commute even more difficult, now I get to try and explain why complete incompetents like you are continuing to dumb down the rest of us at JB....ALPA isn't the complete answer, but if you think "Dave" and the rest of the ELT is "going to take care of us", Darwin is alive and well and wearing a blue shirt.....with 4 stripes....

ATR: A little harsh towards Blue!

But I completly agree with your mind set towards the "dickuments" and pretty much everything else you eludded to in your text. But here is a thought>>>> Dave and company have pushed the documents, Direct Relationship, Contrarian Model, blah blah blah and frickin blah down our throats for a long time and their argument is the DR system works and a CBA doesn`t. Each time they open their mouths, they assume a greater responsibility for JB`s success. Point is: If something happens in the future and DB`s contrarian model collapses....there are going to be a lot of pissed off people! I`m sure the flt ops VP`s, CP`s and bluebelles know this and have it all figured out.

Me personally: I do not try to re-invent the wheel. I would be content with a process that for the most part has been effective for the past 80 years! Obviously the likes of AA, United, Delta, SWA etc are just a bunch of idiots and can`t find their arses with both hands. Bluebelles on the other hand got this sh!t wired....why....because they care!!!!

 

[airjackson]

Thank you for making the offline commute even more difficult, QUOTE]

Say again? My commute today involved a legacy crew telling me how much better JB was for having NOT gotten into bed with ALPA. They both commute on JB and couldn't have been more gracious.
Your made-up commuting problems have nothing to do with the five documents, ALPA, or anything else.
I suspect the crews just recognize an a$$-hole when they see one.

 

[Longhorn]

Fear, its the best tactic and the worst. It didn't work for JBPA. It didn't work for ALPA. And, it just won't work, ever... No matter which direction you go with this, there will always be enough pilots here who will outnumber the outspoken few.

As for the 5 documents-- they weren't the best, but you know what, it was free and no matter how black you paint them, they improve our current contracts. You say the scope clause sucks, well, what did we have before this? Right, none... Some scope is better than no scope.

I think the real test in the future is all of this partnering with overseas carriers, especially into the "Americas"... I can see the LAN/TAM thing because we don't have an aircraft to fly that far south, but wait and see about Avianca-- they do fly a route we can and are flying right now, MCO-BOG...

Screw the scope issues...the big deal with these documents that everyone is overlooking is that we gave away JOINDER....period.