Alpa

[charlie2]

That makes no sense whatsoever. ALPA's merger policy is negotiate->mediate->arbitrate. No promises since going to arbitration is always a crapshoot. What possible other methodology could ensure one side doesn't take advantage of the other?

Pilots have proven over and over that given the chance they'll craft an integrated seniority list that "protects" their own and screws the others. Witness AA/TWA and what USAPA is trying to do. You don't want to be compared to either of those scoundrels, do you?

Has there ever been a merger where it didn't go to arbitration? If not than why the first two steps? I think most arbitrators will go the non DOH route so why aren't we smart enough to just do it ourselves? Oh ya that silly little thing called a DFR lawsuit that makes the union "protect their own".

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba:

I guess I'm missing your point. Obviously each side will propose something that benefits them. The arbitrator knows very well what all the issues are affecting each individual merger.

Since you find fault with ALPA's way of integrating what do you propose as a more fair way?

Every case is different. I have no problem with negotiating, mediation, etc. What I AM proposing is that a carrier's pilot union NOT to agree ahead of time (as required by membership in ALPA) that it'll use Relative or DOH no matter what the case is. Since every case is different, agreeing to this long before any specific merger is even announced considered, is unfair. Not only that, but it gives a legal boost to whomever can pick one of those criteria to favor themselves ("hey, your honor, they already agreed to use this criteria!")

See what I'm getting at?

Bubba

 

[TWA Dude]

What I AM proposing is that a carrier's pilot union NOT to agree ahead of time (as required by membership in ALPA) that it'll use Relative or DOH no matter what the case is.

First of all, with the exception of USAPA I'm not aware of any predetermined SLI method. ALPA has certain guidelines spelled out but they aren't actually binding.

Second, I don't see the efficacy of your idea. Either both pilot groups will come to an agreement or they won't. Chances are they won't and will end up making their case in front of the arbitrator who's heard it all before.

 

[TWA Dude]

Has there ever been a merger where it didn't go to arbitration?

TWA/AA.

...so why aren't we smart enough to just do it ourselves?

Don't ask me, ask the former East MEC.

 

[charlie2]

TWA/AA.

I guess I should have asked if there was any good new list after a merger without an arbitrator.

 

[TWA Dude]

Depends on your definition of "good".

 

[charlie2]

Depends on your definition of "good".

Was the TWA merger list good?

 

[TWA Dude]

Nope. Without getting into an irrelevant discussion of the details suffice it to say the APA got to impose the list they wanted. That ain't fair no matter how you slice it.

 

[charlie2]

Nope. Without getting into an irrelevant discussion of the details suffice it to say the APA got to impose the list they wanted. That ain't fair no matter how you slice it.

I know so my question still is...is there a "good" list resulting from a merger?

 

[Fubijaakr]

SWA was everybody's last stop for a job....Now? Top of the heap....and they let everybody know it. Thanks to the undercutting SWAPA, Pensions and pay are gone and my management pointed at them as a good example of "productivity". I can't wait for the day when we all have to pay for our ratings......

It is laughable how some on FI forget the history.

Well said. Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[TWA Dude]

I know so my question still is...is there a "good" list resulting from a merger?

Yes. The Nicolau list. Any more questions?

 

[TillerTurner]

Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.

ALpA is excellent at repeating history.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

If ALPA was so good for the industry, why is it so bad?

Why did they allow those companies to drop the pension plans?

Why did they allow their companies to go bankrupt? Why did they outsource to lower paying RJ's which actually cost more in CASM?

If ALPA is so good, then why is the industry in such a sad state?

Please, blame SWA. Yes, blame SWA, because thats your only argument. That and the companies and unions being unable to come to the realization that a free market requires flexibility which neither of your companies nor unions were willing to give. JUst as it appears is happening now with SWA.

Gee Score....

Pensions? Try underfunded by the company and then an emergency distressed liquidation of the pension under court approval was the threat and the reality.....yep blame ALPA.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I'm not the original author of this, but rather copied this from another forum. It's certainly insightful about ALPA. Maybe originally they served their function well, but now they've essentially become just like a government bureaucracy: bloated, inefficient and wasteful, top-heavy, and out of touch with their actual constituents.

Here's a few ALPA tidbits people tend to forget at moments like this.

-ALPA has signed 13 concessionary contracts in the last 10 years.

-Most ALPA carriers have had pilots on furlough in the last 10 years.

-Every ALPA carrier is heavily vested in codeshare and alliances.

-Most ALPA carriers use PBS (it was invented by the ALPA sched comm guys at old NWA).

-ALPA dues are ~2% and bump to 2.75% when special assessments are needed.

-It is estimated that the total compensation package of the ALPA President exceeds $800K.

-ALPA's myriad VP's earn $3-500K

-ALPA dues revenue goes directly to national and less than 50% is returned to the member carrier in the form of budgetary allotments.

-ALPA was forced to sell their headquarters building to fund the judgement when they lost the PanAm lawsuit.

-ALPA just lost the TWA lawsuit and has nothing more to sell. They can either raise dues rates or file BK.
Obviously they can (and will) appeal, but $1.2 - 1.4 Billion is a lot of change. Put another way, $1.4B / 30k members = almost $47,000 per pilot special assessment.

-The ALPA policy manual states that every member carrier will strive to enact an earnings cap of 85 hours of pay per month for member pilots.
That's a maximum, not a minimum. No working extra for more money.

-ALPA is so dysfunctional that their headquarters staff had to strike and picket during a recent contract negotiation.

-ALPA granted forgiveness and immunity to the Continental scabs in order to re-organize at Continental. It was the first time in AFL-CIO history such an act had ever been done.


​

More recently, let's add that Jetblue just voted 58% to 42% NOT to have ALPA on their property (They had over 95% voter turnout). That means they'd rather have NO union than have ALPA.

Still love ALPA in the house?

Bubba

yeah Bubba....great talking points!!

We can thank SWAPA for what in this business? (Crickets!)

Did SWAPA get the FFDO program going? or Cass? etc etc.(Crickets!)

Real easy to tout SWAPA as what works when the company was profitable and flies to 65 destinations.

ALPA pilots represent ALL pilots from every demographic. So finding some flaws and regurgitating crap on the screen makes for great entertainment but you are comparing a 56,000 multi-airline association with an in-house group who allows type ratings to be hired, only a 401K and MAYBE a collective bargaining contract we can ALL gain from. Thanks for that.

 

[Full of LUV]

If ALPA was so good for the industry, why is it so bad?

Why did they allow those companies to drop the pension plans?

Why did they allow their companies to go bankrupt? Why did they outsource to lower paying RJ's which actually cost more in CASM?

If ALPA is so good, then why is the industry in such a sad state?

Please, blame SWA. Yes, blame SWA, because thats your only argument. That and the companies and unions being unable to come to the realization that a free market requires flexibility which neither of your companies nor unions were willing to give. JUst as it appears is happening now with SWA.

Do you honestly believe that ALPA is responsible for losing pension plans, BK's and more scope relief? You think those developments were bad, they were mostly mitigated by ALPA, not promoted. BTW, god help any ununionized pilot group going through BK reorg as the company will get what they can out of labor.

What you had after deregulation was an irrational expansion of domestic airservice, fueled initially by $30/barrel oil followed by a contraction that lead to furloughs and BK's as the bills came due.
SWA's brilliance has been to keep growth slow and steady avoiding debt and the profit and huge loss swings the more mature airlines started suffering.

Your argument that you need more "flexibility" in order to compete. Not sure what you mean, that is what legacy mgmt were trying to gain by reducing scope and contracting out. Now they have the "flexibility" to increase and decrease flying with very little effect on the mainline company by using cheap subcontractors as a shock absorber.

Lastly scoreboard, since you think SWAPA has it figured out, I would submit you have to have a pension before you can lose one.
LUV

 

[rudder]

What I meant is that their manner of merger policy (that constituent locals agree to) is based on DOH and Relative seniority, period.
Bubba

Wrong.

The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable integrated seniority list is reached. Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, shall include but not be limited to the following:

§ Career expectations.

§ Longevity.

§ Status and category.

 

[Kalifornia]

I'm not the original author of this, but rather copied this from another forum. It's certainly insightful about ALPA. Maybe originally they served their function well, but now they've essentially become just like a government bureaucracy: bloated, inefficient and wasteful, top-heavy, and out of touch with their actual constituents.

Here's a few ALPA tidbits people tend to forget at moments like this.

-ALPA has signed 13 concessionary contracts in the last 10 years.

-Most ALPA carriers have had pilots on furlough in the last 10 years.

-Every ALPA carrier is heavily vested in codeshare and alliances.

-Most ALPA carriers use PBS (it was invented by the ALPA sched comm guys at old NWA).

-ALPA dues are ~2% and bump to 2.75% when special assessments are needed.

-It is estimated that the total compensation package of the ALPA President exceeds $800K.

-ALPA's myriad VP's earn $3-500K

-ALPA dues revenue goes directly to national and less than 50% is returned to the member carrier in the form of budgetary allotments.

-ALPA was forced to sell their headquarters building to fund the judgement when they lost the PanAm lawsuit.

-ALPA just lost the TWA lawsuit and has nothing more to sell. They can either raise dues rates or file BK.
Obviously they can (and will) appeal, but $1.2 - 1.4 Billion is a lot of change. Put another way, $1.4B / 30k members = almost $47,000 per pilot special assessment.

-The ALPA policy manual states that every member carrier will strive to enact an earnings cap of 85 hours of pay per month for member pilots.
That's a maximum, not a minimum. No working extra for more money.

-ALPA is so dysfunctional that their headquarters staff had to strike and picket during a recent contract negotiation.

-ALPA granted forgiveness and immunity to the Continental scabs in order to re-organize at Continental. It was the first time in AFL-CIO history such an act had ever been done.


​

More recently, let's add that Jetblue just voted 58% to 42% NOT to have ALPA on their property (They had over 95% voter turnout). That means they'd rather have NO union than have ALPA.

Still love ALPA in the house?

Bubba

Some of those points are valid, but you absolute ALPA haters forget that the membership of ALPA is the collective wisdom of the combined airline pilot group (which acts with flaws: arrogance, cockiness, aloofness,,,,), the minute details/particulars controlled by each individual MEC, the votes made by the membership and the struggles encountered affected by the good grace level of the company flown for. Of course union corruption is an issue, and should be dealt with.

Let's not forget the other airline union groups:

ATA
http://www.airlines.org/About/Membership/Pages/membership.aspx

RAA
http://www.raa.org/AirlineMembers/tabid/65/Default.aspx


My favorite part is where Skywest Airlines is part of the RAA, Roger Cohen and all, and has convinced the pilots not form a union. That's funny like a sad clown.

 

[redflyer65]

Roger Cohen. Was he the tanning bed dude that said the regional work rules are all safe?

 

[waveflyer]

Alright- I'll critique ALPA for a lot of things- especially in this situation& beurocratic, lack of leadership, etc-
But a whole lot of the examples you list Bubba have to do with a coordinated attack, by management on us as airline pilots- using 9/11 and elastic BK rules to gut contracts, all part of a larger anti union movement that most airline pilots actively and LOUDLY support.

We'd all be better off understanding that we are enemy #1 for republican corporatists= the highly paid union worker. And as Swapa members please know there's a whole lot of our contract, when compared to lesser contracts, that could be considered "something for nothing".

ALPA has a conflict of interest- it's been highlighted- and if AT pilots don't get it by now, it's not on us to try and save them from themselves. But keep the ALPA critiques relevant.

 

[scoreboardII]

And instead of working with management, ALPA said NO. No contract modifications, no talk of reduced wageswith a payback at a later date to get thought the tough times, just: NO.

While working with SWA, all SWA wanted was for SL9 to be sent out to vote, ALPA said NO. SWA wanted to extend the timeline 3 months to let talks continue, ALPA said NO.

Now, you all being smart ALPA men, what do YOU think the likely outcome will be when ALPA once again says NO to SWA?