135 reg question..................

[Fly91]

Ok....a guy owns his own jet, and owns his own 135 certificate....the plane is on that certificate, they have a POI and its an operating 135 operation......but never ever charters the plane. Literally turns down every charter customer that calls because he simply doesn't REALLY want to charter his plane.........he just flys it 30-50 hours per year for his personal trips.

Question:

He asks me to be his Chief Pilot........is there anything illegal about him actually not chartering the plane out ever.
Or better yet.....can anything come back to me by way of trouble?

I ask because this is a job that just requires my name to be on the paperwork as CP....I'll maybe do a few trips a year for him on my off days. But he's gonna pay me $36,000/yr. So it won't effect my real job in any way.....I was just told I could get in trouble since he will NOT ever charter the plane for real.....that all he wants to do is not lose his 135 certificate for non-use.

Anyone know about this.........????

 

[340drvr]

Sorry, I don't have an answer for your primary question, but...............
Gotta say, the whole annunciator panel just went red with your CP scenario, I'd be extremely cautious with the idea of being listed as CP "on paper" as you say. IMHO, there's no amount of salary whatsoever that would make it reasonable for me to be CP in absentia for a 135 operation. Don't forget that you'd be singularly accountable for any and all violations or infractions under your watch. Hard to keep an eye on "operational control" without day-to-day contact. Maybe that's not what you meant, and, there are certainly situations where the CP is not necessarily flying "the line" all the time, nor is it required to be "in the office" every day, but, there is a fairly high level of watchdog responsibility required to keep yourself and the operation from running afoul of regs.
Maybe you're already aware of all the ramifications, and, I'm not saying this deal might not be workable, just go in with full situational awareness.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

I have never heard of anyone getting in hot water for not flying any charter. My last job was a 91/135 operation where I was the "base manager". It was a large 135 certificate and someone else was the listed CP. We flew very little charter with our jet. Some years it was less than 10 hours charter and we typically flew 400hrs/yr. Never heard anything from the FAA. However, having a 135 certificate # on the tail makes you a target for ramp checks. No big deal, but you just have to make sure that everything is done the right way.

Concerning being employed as the CP, I assume you are being listed as the CP for the 135 certificate. I also assume your "real job" is that of a pilot. There are plenty of other issues in the 135 world that can get you in trouble and lack of flying is the least of my worries. Depending on what your "real job" is, is it worth $36,000/yr to potentially loose your license? I don't know the specifics of the situation, but is the risk worth the reward?

 

[Skippy]

dude-- take the position and the $, do monthly audits to keep ur ass out of hot water-- its not a crime to not make money with a charter business-- the fact that he doesnt want to charter makes no bearing on the operation or business. you are totally and legally fine.
ur welcome,
skippy

 

[Fly91]

Ok, well thanks for the replies. Yes, I have a 91 gig as a pilot.

340dryvr,
The only reason I wasn't too concerned about the plane flying all over is because it doesn't. Just the owners personal flights at about 40 hours a year. So its not like its a 450 hour 135 plane with different pilots flying it. It will be me on some trips and another guy who is an A330 captain at an airline. His trips are scheduled 2 weeks in advance and I would get email notifications of every trip. I would probably put pilots on each flight unless the other captain could handle things.

BUT.......doesn't this mean all pilots who fly this plane also have to go through Indoc and have sim school under this 135 ops approved training program?
Or can the Part 91 flights be anyone who is just sim current or approved by the insurance company? The whole "operational control" thing tells me ALL pilots must do Indoc, drug program, approved training program, etc.....
Is that correct?

Good thing is: I know the POI personally...good guy. I guess I should chat with him about doing this......

 

[bizjet800]

Ok, well thanks for the replies. Yes, I have a 91 gig as a pilot.

340dryvr,
The only reason I wasn't too concerned about the plane flying all over is because it doesn't. Just the owners personal flights at about 40 hours a year. So its not like its a 450 hour 135 plane with different pilots flying it. It will be me on some trips and another guy who is an A330 captain at an airline. His trips are scheduled 2 weeks in advance and I would get email notifications of every trip. I would probably put pilots on each flight unless the other captain could handle things.

BUT.......doesn't this mean all pilots who fly this plane also have to go through Indoc and have sim school under this 135 ops approved training program?
Or can the Part 91 flights be anyone who is just sim current or approved by the insurance company? The whole "operational control" thing tells me ALL pilots must do Indoc, drug program, approved training program, etc.....
Is that correct?

Good thing is: I know the POI personally...good guy. I guess I should chat with him about doing this......

These are good questions. I would say it's ok to have any pilot fly the 91 trips, assuming they are legal to do so. Per A008, the key thing that matters is that the maintenance is kept up as a 135 plane at all times. All the drug, indoc, training program and operational control stuff only matters if the trips are operated part 135.

That said, this smell fishy, doesn't mean its illegal. This guy might be structuring all this for tax purposes. We have an owner who always flies under 135 rules for this reason.

 

[Fly91]

These are good questions. I would say it's ok to have any pilot fly the 91 trips, assuming they are legal to do so. Per A008, the key thing that matters is that the maintenance is kept up as a 135 plane at all times. All the drug, indoc, training program and operational control stuff only matters if the trips are operated part 135.

That said, this smell fishy, doesn't mean its illegal. This guy might be structuring all this for tax purposes. We have an owner who always flies under 135 rules for this reason.

I'm gonna just get the ok from their POI to do this. I'll let him know everything and see what he says. If I need to go to sim training then they will have to pay for it. Indoc, drug test, whatever.....

I'll have to also ask if the plane is being maintained according to 135 regs also....even if the flying part isn't.

I'm gonna cover myself one way or another.

.

 

[ultrarunner]

Who's the CP now? I'd guess I'd start asking some questions before I agreed to be responsible for 'operational control'.

 

[timmay]

I'm gonna just get the ok from their POI to do this. I'll let him know everything and see what he says. If I need to go to sim training then they will have to pay for it. Indoc, drug test, whatever.....

I'll have to also ask if the plane is being maintained according to 135 regs also....even if the flying part isn't.

I'm gonna cover myself one way or another.

.

You will have to be typed and remain current on the aircraft as chief pilot. So plan on being in school twice a year. Also there is a lot of BS involved with a 135 cert. I would find out if it is a basic or full certificate that will effect the amount of work dramatically.

 

[pilotyip]

You need three years of the last six as a PIC under an operating part in order to be CP. The FAA will have to approve anyone listed and CP and if you do not meet the requirements you will need a FAA waiver. It might be good resume fluff, having been CP on a certificate.

 

[Fly91]

Who's the CP now? I'd guess I'd start asking some questions before I agreed to be responsible for 'operational control'.

CP left for another job.

 

[Fly91]

You will have to be typed and remain current on the aircraft as chief pilot. So plan on being in school twice a year. Also there is a lot of BS involved with a 135 cert. I would find out if it is a basic or full certificate that will effect the amount of work dramatically.

Yup....they pay for all that.

Its a full certificate, they were doing charter last year quite a bit. The boss just doesn't want to anymore.

Last CP pilot said he basically does nothing, except show up for 10-15 flights a year. No office hours, nothing. Plane sits in the hangar when not used by the owner.

 

[100-1/2]

This is not uncommon for owners looking to dodge tax liability for Non-Commercial
Aircraft use many states in the union levy. Technically, you have to take a charter
periodically to satisfy recency of operations where some CHDO's do not view
perpetual Part 91 to satisfy those requirements. Check with the POI assigned to the
certificate and the Manager. POI's are contract employees and subject to attrition
while District/Regional Management tend to offer more long term stability.
If you are in it for the short term financial gain and the POI is on board, cash the
checks and ensure it stays a "clean" operation as many have suggested already.

100-1/2

 

[brokeflyer]

You dont have to ever fly a trip...ever. All you need is an airworthy plane and a current crew. You won't get in trouble for anything since the airplane isnt flown on a any part 135 legs.

A few years back I was in the exact scenario you described, Kinda a nice gig.

 

[LJ45]

You dont have to ever fly a trip...ever. All you need is an airworthy plane and a current crew. You won't get in trouble for anything since the airplane isnt flown on a any part 135 legs.

A few years back I was in the exact scenario you described, Kinda a nice gig.

Not true:

119.63 Recency of operation.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no certificate holder may conduct a kind of operation for which it holds authority in its operations specifications unless the certificate holder has conducted that kind of operation within the preceding number of consecutive calendar days specified in this paragraph:
(1) For domestic, flag, or commuter operations—30 days.
(2) For supplemental or on-demand operations—90 days, except that if the certificate holder has authority to conduct domestic, flag, or commuter operations, and has conducted domestic, flag or commuter operations within the previous 30 days, this paragraph does not apply.
(b) If a certificate holder does not conduct a kind of operation for which it is authorized in its operations specifications within the number of calendar days specified in paragraph (a) of this section, it shall not conduct such kind of operation unless—
(1) It advises the Administrator at least 5 consecutive calendar days before resumption of that kind of operation; and
(2) It makes itself available and accessible during the 5 consecutive calendar day period in the event that the FAA decides to conduct a full inspection reexamination to determine whether the certificate holder remains properly and adequately equipped and able to conduct a safe operation.

 

[ultrarunner]

Billing your internal trips through the 135 side meets the requirements of 119.63

 

[timmay]

I think the biggest issue with this type of operation is going back and forth between 91 and 135 with the aircraft. Once you fly a trip part 91 there is mx requirements to get the airplane back 135 current. Just like everything else part 135, it is a pain in the @ss.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

I think the biggest issue with this type of operation is going back and forth between 91 and 135 with the aircraft. Once you fly a trip part 91 there is mx requirements to get the airplane back 135 current. Just like everything else part 135, it is a pain in the @ss.

The only difference in CFR 135 vs. 91 maintenace is that under CFR 135, you must comply with mandatory service bulletins. Under CFR 91, madatory SB's are not required, but they are a step away from becoming an AD. If an aircraft is properly maintained IAW the Ch 5 of the MM, then it would not have any problem going on a 135 certificate.

You can fly a 135 aircraft without 135 current crews on 91 trips. Example, the crew does not have a current .297. They are still legal to fly under 91. However, the aircraft must always be maintained to 135 standards.

If I go fly a 91 trip for my boss, there are no special mx requirements to bring the aircraft back into compliance with 135. So long as the jet is always maintained to 135 standards.

 

[LJ45]

Billing your internal trips through the 135 side meets the requirements of 119.63

yes, and weight & balance plus all other 135 paperwork for that flight.

 

[rice]

I think the biggest issue with this type of operation is going back and forth between 91 and 135 with the aircraft. Once you fly a trip part 91 there is mx requirements to get the airplane back 135 current. Just like everything else part 135, it is a pain in the @ss.

Really, where do people come up with these types of statements????