Pre Acquisition Applicants

[LearLove]

This has to be the weakest arguement ever posted on FI. "staple because x number have an app on file with the merging airline" - really? You cant be serious with this crap.

 

[fiel12]

Bob Jordan was in our crew room the other day talking to pilots. He said that he was obviously disappointed with our MEC, but he said we are family now and we will get this thing worked out. I wanted to tell him of some of the threats on here, but I decided not to go there.

Well... What did you expect him to say?

 

[Andy]

Andy, FWIW, the M-B trigger isn't 51% of the airframes. . . It's based on assets. Not sure that the leased 717s would pass that threshold. That info might appear on the Balance Sheet, not sure if it's in sufficient detail to form a clear opinion.

I think its all a moot point anyway. The airlines will be combined. It's alrrady happening.

You're absolutely correct; it's total assets, not simply airframes. But I'm sure that there are other things beside the 717s that can be sold. Such as AirTran's ATL offices, simulators, ground equipment, etc.

I hope that this does work out and both pilot groups are integrated. But I doubt that SWAPA's going to accept much more than DOH minus ~4 and GK's already hinting that he doesn't want to go to arbitration. Just like the rest of us, GK's aware that screwy things can happen in arbitration.
I hope that in private you guys are lowering your integration expections.

Good luck to all of you at AirTran; I hope things work out well for you. Just be aware of the risk if you try to push too hard.

Once the dust settles on this, you can have a good laugh at the histrionics over the CAL/UAL integration. I'm fortunate. I'm halfway up the furloughee list so I've already lowered my expectations to a full staple. At best, if CAL's furloughees were integrated by relative seniority, that would only add 70 numbers or so below me.
It's all about understanding every possible outcome and managing expectations appropriately.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

You're absolutely correct; it's total assets, not simply airframes. But I'm sure that there are other things beside the 717s that can be sold. Such as AirTran's ATL offices, simulators, ground equipment, etc.

it seems to me that if you are concerned about the requirement to get rid of 51% you'd actually want as much on list of assets as possible. take the 717's away and that's less that you have to get rid of.

 

[Andy]

it seems to me that if you are concerned about the requirement to get rid of 51% you'd actually want as much on list of assets as possible. take the 717's away and that's less that you have to get rid of.

The acquisition has already occurred. It closed on 2 May 2011. A strong case could be made for the individual asset valuations on that date.
The tricky part of this is that asset sales can be structured to make it appear that most of the assets have been sold. For instance, the 717 leases could be sold at an inflated price but with monthly 'subsidies' from Southwest. It gets a lot more complicated than that but GK's an accountant; he knows how to play the asset valuation game.

I'm not saying that any of this is going to happen but there are some nuclear options available. This interview makes that rather clear: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/08/gary-kelly-talks-about-airtran-1.html

So at this point we'll move forward. There is a process agreement in place that allows for mediated sessions and then ultimately binding arbitration if we merge the two airlines. We're going to take a step back and evaluate all of our operations.

 

[Fubijaakr]

The whole premise of this thread is flawed. It doesn't matter how many AAI pilots have apps at SWA.

When SWA and AAI MERGED, each pilot group bought their seniority to the merge with them.

So, DoH or a post-93 ratio becomes the only fair way to merge the lists.

 

[redflyer65]

Fubi,

Why don't you reign it in a little dude. I'm sorry you have such a hard*ne for SW. You've actually eclisped the General in my book as the most annoying anti-SW poster.

RF

 

[Fubijaakr]

Fubi,

Why don't you reign it in a little dude. I'm sorry you have such a hard*ne for SW. You've actually eclisped the General in my book as the most annoying anti-SW poster.

RF

I'm not anti-SWA. I'm anti-SWA f/o SLI arrogance. Check the mirror, Sonny.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm not anti-SWA..

Whatever Fubag.

 

[MILF Hunter]

I think we should leave it up to our NCs to decide what is fair.

Nope. Already tried that. Didn't work so well the first time. Next...

 

[Roomwithaview]

fubar

The whole premise of this thread is flawed. It doesn't matter how many AAI pilots have apps at SWA.

Doesn't matter what you think. Only the arbitrator.

Or as you'll be referring to him post award "the abitraitor"

 

[sooner01]

if i understand the opening of this post. if the airtran pilots that had apps on file at southwest went to the bottom would the southwest guys give the ones that didnt, relative seniority? i dont think that is possible as that would result in seniority out of order.

 

[sooner01]

also several have said date of hire, with some opposed to that. how does date of hire affect both sides seniority?

 

[Roomwithaview]

Depends?

if i understand the opening of this post. if the airtran pilots that had apps on file at southwest went to the bottom would the southwest guys give the ones that didnt, relative seniority? i dont think that is possible as that would result in seniority out of order.

Where are you going to put the guys from SWA that had apps on file at AAI? Wait! Nevermind!!

 

[canyonblue]

Bob Jordan was in our crew room the other day talking to pilots. He said that he was obviously disappointed with our MEC, but he said we are family now .....

Kind of like the Manson Family.

 

[canyonblue]

I'm not anti-SWA. I'm anti-SWA f/o SLI arrogance.

'Arrogance'

I like that. That's nice.

You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to leave your words right up here for all of Flight Info to enjoy, giving you full credit of course, Mr. Fubijaakr.

 

[Tripower455]

if i understand the opening of this post. if the airtran pilots that had apps on file at southwest went to the bottom would the southwest guys give the ones that didnt, relative seniority? i dont think that is possible as that would result in seniority out of order.

The argument is one of "career expectations". The large number of AT guy who've either LEFT AT for SW and other places vs. the number of SW guys that have left for AT and other places illustrates the difference in "career expectations" between SW and AT.

This point, more than any other, proves just how different a career at AT is than SW. If they were equals, why would so many folks leave or attempt to leave AT?

In spite of what some of the vocal posters (trolls) say on here, "career expectations" ARE a player in arbitration.

 

[Ty Webb]

The argument is one of "career expectations". The large number of AT guy who've either LEFT AT for SW and other places vs. the number of SW guys that have left for AT and other places illustrates the difference in "career expectations" between SW and AT.

This point, more than any other, proves just how different a career at AT is than SW. If they were equals, why would so many folks leave or attempt to leave AT?

In spite of what some of the vocal posters (trolls) say on here, "career expectations" ARE a player in arbitration.

There are two sides to every argument . . . I would say that the 1600 of us who did NOT go to SWA obviously believed that their career expectations were better at AirTran, by a margin of 16 to 1.

It may make you feel better, but an Arbitrator will not be impressed by people choosing to go from the bottom of one list to the bottom of the other. Give it a rest, already.

 

[swingtrader]

Back in '08 AAI furloughed 169 pilots. You can bet everyone of them applied at any and all airlines that were even thinking of hiring. Can you blame them? Duh!

 

[Beetle007]

Andy, FWIW, the M-B trigger isn't 51% of the airframes. . . It's based on assets.

More than 50% of assets or equity is the trigger for M-B.

 

[Beetle007]

The argument is one of "career expectations". The large number of AT guy who've either LEFT AT for SW and other places vs. the number of SW guys that have left for AT and other places illustrates the difference in "career expectations" between SW and AT.

This point, more than any other, proves just how different a career at AT is than SW. If they were equals, why would so many folks leave or attempt to leave AT?

You could argue that more Airtran pilots left because they basically only had one base in Atlanta. If you wanted to live in Atlanta, Airtran was the place to be. If you want to live somewhere other than Atlanta, Southwest was the place to be. It is obvious that since Southwest had more bases you would expect more pilots to be able to find a location in which they were satisfied.

The only fair agreement would be one that puts significant fences in Atlanta to protect the Airtran pilots from the Southwest pilots and significant fences at all non-Airtran bases to protect the Southwest pilots from the Airtran guys.

To protect the Airtran pilots from Southwest simply reducing the Airtran pilot base but maintaining the flying in Atlanta, the fence would have to maintain a proportional protection based on the amount of traffic capacity maintained in Atlanta. In other words, if Southwest decided to reduce the pilot base but maintain the Atlanta flying, the fence protections would have to somehow transfer to other bases so that airtran captains could remain captains and airtran FOs still have upgrade opportunities similar to what they expected prior to the merger.

 

[Beetle007]

Below are a couple quotes from arbitrator decisions. I don't understand why the fairness and impartiality of an arbitrator seems to scare so many people. ​

“It is our purpose to see that each [pilot] on the two lists would retain all they had prior to the merger, would accrue those things which they would have had without the merger, and at the same time be in a position on the integrated lists to permit them to share equitably in any promotional opportunities which will arise as a result of the merged operation. . . . Seniority is, of course, highly relevant in the achievement of the objective stated, in various forms, by almost everyone who has dealt with this question". Seniority, however, is a relative factor. As Professor Benjamin Aaron has said, quoting David Cole in the Pan-American case, “A seniority list (is) not determined solely by time, ... it reflects the priority of job rights and opportunities of employees as among themselves which the employer agrees to respect.” ​

In one such recent decision, the arbitrators observed that the lodestar standard posits accomplishment of “the following goals, in no particular order: a. Preserve jobs; b. Avoid windfalls to [any] group at the expense of [any] other(s); c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living; d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status; e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations". Delta/Northwest, (R. Bloch, D. Eischen, F. Horowitz at 13, 2008).​

There is general agreement among those who have dealt with pilot seniority questions following airline mergers that, in the words of the late David A. Cole in the Easter-Mackey case, “The essential object of our exercise is to prevent impairment, so far as possible, of the job security and the earning and promotional opportunities which each of the pilot groups had on its own airline prior to the merger.”​

 

[Tripower455]

You could argue that more Airtran pilots left because they basically only had one base in Atlanta. If you wanted to live in Atlanta, Airtran was the place to be. If you want to live somewhere other than Atlanta, Southwest was the place to be. It is obvious that since Southwest had more bases you would expect more pilots to be able to find a location in which they were satisfied.

The only fair agreement would be one that puts significant fences in Atlanta to protect the Airtran pilots from the Southwest pilots and significant fences at all non-Airtran bases to protect the Southwest pilots from the Airtran guys.


To protect the Airtran pilots from Southwest simply reducing the Airtran pilot base but maintaining the flying in Atlanta, the fence would have to maintain a proportional protection based on the amount of traffic capacity maintained in Atlanta. In other words, if Southwest decided to reduce the pilot base but maintain the Atlanta flying, the fence protections would have to somehow transfer to other bases so that airtran captains could remain captains and airtran FOs still have upgrade opportunities similar to what they expected prior to the merger.

I was answering the guys question. The bottom line is that regardless of the reasons, people simply didn't leave SW for AT, and a lot of guys did the opposite. This indicates that AT wasn't a "top tier, career destination", but SW is.

And before the "guys left SW in droves in the 90's" start up, I was here, and while a few did leave for UAL and DAL, they could be counted on one hand.

 

[Tripower455]

There are two sides to every argument . . . I would say that the 1600 of us who did NOT go to SWA obviously believed that their career expectations were better at AirTran, by a margin of 16 to 1.

Whatever.... Out of those 1600 guys, there were a ton of active SW applications on file from AT guys on 9/27. I'll venture to guess that there were NONE the other way around. Heck, a few of them actually left AFTER 9/27.

It may make you feel better, but an Arbitrator will not be impressed by people choosing to go from the bottom of one list to the bottom of the other.

It doesn't make me feel better... this entire thing is and will continue to be a nightmare for our guys.

As for what an arbitrator will or will not consider, who knows, but I'll bet that "career expectations" is gonna be a player. The question is how much of a player.

Give it a rest, already.

Sorry, I was answering a guys question about the thread topic.

 

[SWA/FO]

1600 of us who did NOT go to SWA

Some never applied, some never got called, and some didn't get hired. There are more AT apps on file at SWA then SWA app at AT.

 

[Beetle007]

And before the "guys left SW in droves in the 90's" start up, I was here, and while a few did leave for UAL and DAL, they could be counted on one hand.

Are you saying 5 or less pilots left Southwest to go to UAL and DAL in the late 90s?

I don't think payrates should have much direct weight in the calculations of career expectations. Obviously we have all seen how quickly payrates can go up and down in this industry.

However, it could be argued that payrates are tied to the financial health and business plan of an airline which does affect career expecations. If Airtran wasn't financially feasible at Southwest payrates, then that is a valid arguement. However, what makes Airtran now feasible at Southwest payrates? Does this mean that Airtran was feasible at Southwest payrates but that management simply wanted to pocket the money for growth and/or profits?

 

[Tripower455]

A few guys left in the late 90's to DAL and UAL. I don't know the exact number, but it wasn't a ton of folks. I personally know a guy who left DAL to come to SW and a few who didn't take their furlough recall to AA to stay at SW. The bottom line is however many left SW over a few year period, that number pales compared to the number of AT guys that left there to come to SW alone, not to mention other airlines or the number of active apps on file at SW on 9/27.

As for the rest....... As I said, regardless of the reasons, a lot of folks thought their career expectations were better at SW than AT and either left or at least tried to leave AT. The same can't be said the other way..


We'll find out how it played out in a few years.

 

[Beetle007]

I personally know a guy who left DAL to come to SW and a few who didn't take their furlough recall to AA to stay at SW..

I know pilots who gave up recall at AA, NWA, UAL, LCC etc to stay at Spirit Airlines. Heck, the guy who had the number 2 seniority at Virgin just left to go to Spirit. It doesn't mean that one airline offers better career expectations than another. It means that one airline suits the personal needs of a person more than another (location, lifestyle, etc).

 

[Roomwithaview]

Relative
So then I guess if we gave all you guys Relative with your old contract, work rules, pay and schedules that'd work for you?

 

[Tripower455]

I know pilots who gave up recall at AA, NWA, UAL, LCC etc to stay at Spirit Airlines. Heck, the guy who had the number 2 seniority at Virgin just left to go to Spirit. It doesn't mean that one airline offers better career expectations than another. It means that one airline suits the personal needs of a person more than another (location, lifestyle, etc).

I agree.. A few guys going against the norm isn't indicative of career expectations. A bunch of guys doing it, for years on end, is.....

At last count, we've got well over 100 former AT guys at SW. IIRC, the number is closer to 200. And these aren't all recent either, some have been here over 10 years.