Pre Acquisition Applicants

[On Your Six]

No way DOH would float at SW. Sorry.

It's like merging apples and slim jims. Not even close to equals. The very reason you guys were high fiving after the announcement, SW pilots...not so much. Sorry. Its an acquistion of non-equals.

I'd say at this point...DOH-5 with some junior AAI CA coming to FO might work. I don't think SWAPA will be interested in anything less right now. Not with the CEO pulling all help and talking about other options. Just my take. I'd say a negotiated settlement has a 30% chance at best, Gary won't go the arbitration route.

Please, please let Redflyer give the opening statement at the possible arbitration. And, use the Slim Jim comparison, too. Classic! And isn't arbitration in the Process Agreement, that all parties signed?


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Bendover, have you ever read a 10Q or 10K? AirTran hocked just about every asset they had. Part of the reason for the sale was that they couldn't afford to pay for the aircraft they had on order. Cash on hand was shrinking.
Here are numbers for 3Q2010:
AirTran's CASM for employee salaries was 2.06 cents.
AirTran's total CASM was 9.75 cents.
AirTran's TRASM was 10.65 cents

Move AirTran's employees up to Southwest wages and AirTran's losing money. Did I mention that 3Q2010 was AirTran's best quarter in 2010?
For 2010, AirTran's CASM was 10.35 cents and their TRASM was 10.88 cents.

The majority of AirTran's aircraft are 717s

You've presented a fact free point of view

You already let your NC decide what was fair. AirTran's NC thought that DOH minus ~4 years with pay sweeteners was fair.

The NC did make a decision, but never was allowed to close the deal, which the MEC decides initially to give thumbs up or down. Obviously the MEC thought the NC got it wrong, and that is their duty. I doubt any arbitrator would give the same type of deal to the AT group, and unlike you they will decide what is fair.


OYS

 

[RLAblows]

No way DOH would float at SW. Sorry.

It's like merging apples and slim jims. Not even close to equals. The very reason you guys were high fiving after the announcement, SW pilots...not so much. Sorry. Its an acquistion of non-equals.

I'd say at this point...DOH-5 with some junior AAI CA coming to FO might work. I don't think SWAPA will be interested in anything less right now. Not with the CEO pulling all help and talking about other options. Just my take. I'd say a negotiated settlement has a 30% chance at best, Gary won't go the arbitration route.

OHHHHHH! I love me!

 

[vixin]

Andy,
Please stop with the facts.

 

[On Your Six]

Andy,
Please stop with the facts.

You mean like following the Process Agreement, which all parties signed? Looks like a neutral could decide what truly is fair, and that scares some people. Godspeed!


OYS

 

[Andy]

Andy,
Please stop with the facts.

Vixin, I'm not a fan of either airline. And I definitely don't like the airline that's furloughed me 7 of my 11 years there (and counting).
But if someone's spouting incorrect information and I have proof that it's incorrect, I'll post it. Be it someone who has a Southwest bias or an AirTran bias.
My personal opinion is that AirTran's pilots were offered a fair deal. I don't think that they'll get a better deal out of arbitration but you never know how those things go.
I think part of the problem is that AirTran's pilots have been used to playing poker with management that does a lot of bluffing. From what I've seen over the years, Southwest management doesn't bluff. They don't hold back any bargaining chips; they play straight up. That's not seen very often in business anymore. So when I read Gary Kelly's statements after SL9 was not put to a membership vote, it sounded like the whole integration was in jeopardy. AirTran's pilots don't read it that way. They may be right; GK may let this go to arbitration and they're integrated into a single list. I simply think that the odds of that happening have diminished considerably and now it's a question of what the cost will be to walk away from this without an integration.
If I were GK, I'd be shopping the 88 717s (and the pilots that go with those airframes) to any and all carriers so that I could apply the fragmentation provisions of section 45. Note that selling off those 88 aircraft would comprise more than 50% of AirTran. For the McCaskill-Bond amendment to apply, more than 50% of the carrier's assets have to be transferred in order to be a 'covered transaction'. Spinning off the 717s and crews would solve the entire integration issue since it would completely eliminate McCaskill-Bond from the equation.
... and for those on here that think that such an idea hasn't been presented to Southwest management, I think you're mistaken. I've gone through some parallel processes outside of aviation and the halfway decent lawyers would always have a large list of possible options. When I worked issues, our rule was that we had to be able to present a minimum of three different options but the more the better.

Good luck to everyone who has a stake in this; I hope that it works out reasonably well for everyone but this is pretty much a zero sum game.

 

[Tanker Clown]

To be fair, you should also factor in all the AT guys who would have like to have applied...but failed to meet the minum requirements to even apply.

 

[ATLplt]

You already let your NC decide what was fair. AirTran's NC thought that DOH minus ~4 years with pay sweeteners was fair.

Our MC NEVER thought that the proposal was fair, not by a longshot. They thought it was a "possibly livable negotiated deal", at that specific time, that could be sent out for a vote. That's it. Every single member of the MC will gladly tell you to your face that the deal was most certainly NOT fair.

 

[SWA717]

Bob Jordan was in our crew room the other day talking to pilots. He said that he was obviously disappointed with our MEC, but he said we are family now and we will get this thing worked out. I wanted to tell him of some of the threats on here, but I decided not to go there.

 

[Ty Webb]

Andy, FWIW, the M-B trigger isn't 51% of the airframes. . . It's based on assets. Not sure that the leased 717s would pass that threshold. That info might appear on the Balance Sheet, not sure if it's in sufficient detail to form a clear opinion.

I think its all a moot point anyway. The airlines will be combined. It's alrrady happening.

 

[LearLove]

This has to be the weakest arguement ever posted on FI. "staple because x number have an app on file with the merging airline" - really? You cant be serious with this crap.

 

[fiel12]

Bob Jordan was in our crew room the other day talking to pilots. He said that he was obviously disappointed with our MEC, but he said we are family now and we will get this thing worked out. I wanted to tell him of some of the threats on here, but I decided not to go there.

Well... What did you expect him to say?

 

[Andy]

Andy, FWIW, the M-B trigger isn't 51% of the airframes. . . It's based on assets. Not sure that the leased 717s would pass that threshold. That info might appear on the Balance Sheet, not sure if it's in sufficient detail to form a clear opinion.

I think its all a moot point anyway. The airlines will be combined. It's alrrady happening.

You're absolutely correct; it's total assets, not simply airframes. But I'm sure that there are other things beside the 717s that can be sold. Such as AirTran's ATL offices, simulators, ground equipment, etc.

I hope that this does work out and both pilot groups are integrated. But I doubt that SWAPA's going to accept much more than DOH minus ~4 and GK's already hinting that he doesn't want to go to arbitration. Just like the rest of us, GK's aware that screwy things can happen in arbitration.
I hope that in private you guys are lowering your integration expections.

Good luck to all of you at AirTran; I hope things work out well for you. Just be aware of the risk if you try to push too hard.

Once the dust settles on this, you can have a good laugh at the histrionics over the CAL/UAL integration. I'm fortunate. I'm halfway up the furloughee list so I've already lowered my expectations to a full staple. At best, if CAL's furloughees were integrated by relative seniority, that would only add 70 numbers or so below me.
It's all about understanding every possible outcome and managing expectations appropriately.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

You're absolutely correct; it's total assets, not simply airframes. But I'm sure that there are other things beside the 717s that can be sold. Such as AirTran's ATL offices, simulators, ground equipment, etc.

it seems to me that if you are concerned about the requirement to get rid of 51% you'd actually want as much on list of assets as possible. take the 717's away and that's less that you have to get rid of.

 

[Andy]

it seems to me that if you are concerned about the requirement to get rid of 51% you'd actually want as much on list of assets as possible. take the 717's away and that's less that you have to get rid of.

The acquisition has already occurred. It closed on 2 May 2011. A strong case could be made for the individual asset valuations on that date.
The tricky part of this is that asset sales can be structured to make it appear that most of the assets have been sold. For instance, the 717 leases could be sold at an inflated price but with monthly 'subsidies' from Southwest. It gets a lot more complicated than that but GK's an accountant; he knows how to play the asset valuation game.

I'm not saying that any of this is going to happen but there are some nuclear options available. This interview makes that rather clear: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/08/gary-kelly-talks-about-airtran-1.html

So at this point we'll move forward. There is a process agreement in place that allows for mediated sessions and then ultimately binding arbitration if we merge the two airlines. We're going to take a step back and evaluate all of our operations.

 

[Fubijaakr]

The whole premise of this thread is flawed. It doesn't matter how many AAI pilots have apps at SWA.

When SWA and AAI MERGED, each pilot group bought their seniority to the merge with them.

So, DoH or a post-93 ratio becomes the only fair way to merge the lists.

 

[redflyer65]

Fubi,

Why don't you reign it in a little dude. I'm sorry you have such a hard*ne for SW. You've actually eclisped the General in my book as the most annoying anti-SW poster.

RF

 

[Fubijaakr]

Fubi,

Why don't you reign it in a little dude. I'm sorry you have such a hard*ne for SW. You've actually eclisped the General in my book as the most annoying anti-SW poster.

RF

I'm not anti-SWA. I'm anti-SWA f/o SLI arrogance. Check the mirror, Sonny.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm not anti-SWA..

Whatever Fubag.

 

[MILF Hunter]

I think we should leave it up to our NCs to decide what is fair.

Nope. Already tried that. Didn't work so well the first time. Next...