Airtran MEC voted no

[scoreboardII]

Maybe you can tell me how many enemy fighters you shot down that were not built before 1960's, or how many active SAM sights have locked on and fired on you.

Easy:

None.

Twenty-two.

Six.

 

[jonjuan]

The what?

It's a mute point.

 

[slaquer5]

You guys are failing to realize that the Airtran didnt draw the lawn in the sand with relative seniority. They were willing to take a substantial hit. However that being said what Gary Kelly offered was ridiculous. Its not just about the money kids. Its about being to be home with the family or live where you want. Yes the money is going to be nice but as many people are saying it aint everything. As Cal and United merge I dont expect to see a massive benefit over one pilot group over the other. Yes CAL had alot of money in the bank, big growth, fast upgrades, nicer and newer aircraft. So what. I still expect relative seniority. Being selfish I hope I gain a few percentage points. What the Southwest guys are expecting is dillusional.

I just want to make sure I understand what your saying. You expect the number one pilot at AT to placed next to the number one pilot at SWA?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I just want to make sure I understand what your saying. You expect the number one pilot at AT to placed next to the number one pilot at SWA?

NO, but you missed my expectation by 1000 numbers in this AIP.

 

[Music]

You don't have to believe me, you can call me childish, a bully an a$$ I don't care but I promise you an arbitrated list will never see the light of day because there are a lot of people here that will have no problem contributing our own money to tie this up in the legal system for years to come!

It's just business.

Thank God you're not running the airline (or any other business for that matter) You sound like Gordon Gecko. If you truly believe this then why don't 'you give GK a call and offer him some business tips.

You're statement is COMPLETELY emotional, irrational, and yes, I'll say it, CHILDISH. But if you really want to go there, I'm prepared to be patient and wait as long as necessary. Whether you like it or not, we're tied at the hip for better or worse.

"Can't we all just get along".

 

[redflyer65]

"Can't we all just get along".

I hate to be Debbie Downer, but I see that as less and less likely. I've heard some rather interesting stories about how AAI crews have recently interacted with ours. Already getting ugly out on the line.

Begging for a staple (from anyone) just prior to the SW announcement, and now wanting their seniority AND the SW contract as a kicker. That's a pretty huge 'Snake River Canyon' jump. Most people would be quick to agree.

RF

 

[HighSpeed]

Here's our culture, we busted our balls to make a success out troubled airlines and took one sacrifice after another in a process.

The way I see it...

And now to SLI. For you guys to suggest that after 11 years of struggle and building this airline into what it has become my 20+% seniority worth nothing, is an insult. I am a mid to senior captain here who paid his dues every single block our of my time here, and you think that putting me behind a guy who did 2 tours wasting jet fuel in Iraq, sailed into SWA in '05 on wings of squadron buddies, and since enjoyed the worry-free career with fuel hedges and great management is fair?

We carried our management on our backs every leg we flew, by saving gas that they failed to properly hedge so that they can come out smelling like a flower, and sell us for their bonuses.

We've all paid our dues pal.... I could have gone to ATN in 2003. Instead I stayed at a regional making sub standard wages, living paycheck to paycheck raising a family in the Northeast... Making sacrifices to build the PIC time to be competitive to be hired at SWA.

Simply put - how many Airtran Pilots had applied to Southwest?? Why??

Last question: what would you have done after your 97% strike vote??

6000 pilots at SWA were happy to be put at the BOTTOM of the seniority list the day they got hired. We were all thankful to be number last. We told Gary during our new hire breakfast how happy each and every one of us were to be here... Your pilot group just told Gary to kiss off. That you're not happy to be here... That keeping every captain (even those that upgraded two months ago) in his/her seat was not good enough.. In this economy, you have told Gary your not happy to be part of the SWA family... All I can day at this point is good luck... I have friends at ATN and I really hope you all still get to make it here!

 

[Music]

I hate to be Debbie Downer, but I see that as less and less likely. I've heard some rather interesting stories about how AAI crews have recently interacted with ours. Already getting ugly out on the line.

Begging for a staple (from anyone) just prior to the SW announcement, and now wanting their seniority AND the SW contract as a kicker. That's a pretty huge 'Snake River Canyon' jump. Most people would be quick to agree.

RF

I've been the recipient of some of that "ill will" as well. Truly unfortunate, since we're all adults.

As far as the "begging for a staple" part. Yes there are those that have in the past, as well as those that had an app on file at SW. I can only speak for myself that I never applied. For no other reason than I was comfortable where I am. I've spoke of this at length on FI before, so no point in doing it again. That being said, so infer that all of us were "begging for a staple" is just flat wrong and misleading. No wonder why there is so much ill will out there.

 

[bravodude]

Thank God you're not running the airline (or any other business for that matter) You sound like Gordon Gecko. If you truly believe this then why don't 'you give GK a call and offer him some business tips.

You're statement is COMPLETELY emotional, irrational, and yes, I'll say it, CHILDISH. But if you really want to go there, I'm prepared to be patient and wait as long as necessary. Whether you like it or not, we're tied at the hip for better or worse.

"Can't we all just get along".

Once again this is not just me! However if you are willing to wait be my guest I will retire in 30 years then its all yours.

 

[BigMeat]

I just want to make sure I understand what your saying. You expect the number one pilot at AT to placed next to the number one pilot at SWA?

Listen. Should they try for it? Yes. I would. Remember that a little over 10 years ago Southwest was a ********************ty little airline. People were leaving there to go elsewhere including United. I know you guys like to think that you are the top dogs right now but it always was not the case. United was always the highest paid. They did really well for a long time. Then it fell apart. You never had crew meals or dry cleaning or exotic overnights etc. The crap you see in the movies. Dont get me wrong. Everyone know that Southwest has the best culture and is one of the best companies in the world to work for...for now. I hope that it last forever for you guys. The reality is that Airtran was a growing profitable airline. It wasnt in distress. They were working on a contract at the time. Fair is fair. As I said the Airtran pilots were willing to take a nice cut but Gary Kelly went too far. I think he should have stayed out of negotiations between the pilots. And for the rest of you that are cheering that a fellow union pilot might hit the street let me just tell you that you are a very distateful bunch.

 

[Music]

Once again this is not just me! However if you are willing to wait be my guest I will retire in 30 years then its all yours.

I understand that it's not just you. However, making such a ridiculous statement and call it "just business", is well, ridiculous. You're better off saying: "No matter what the arbitrated result, we're gonna pull a USAir on 'ya and keep it in the courts forever".

Work for you?

 

[USMC319]

Hate to break the bad news to the SWAPA gang, but it is likely that the arbitrator will place the #1 Airtran pilot at #3 or #4 on the MSL and then continue the ratio on down from there. Oh yes, there will be a lot of fence language and restrictions on the list, but essentially that's how things are going down in arbitration these days.

 

[Nindiri]

The comments on the SWALife page are quite entertaining today, an outstanding collection of whining, rage, and frustrated venting. Good stuff.

 

[bluepost]

I'm an outsider looking in and and all I (we) can say is WOW! IT is a crazy mix of emotions watching a group pissing away their future.

I read all this talk about "seniority is everything/forever"....time to get another paper route, cause it ain't. Not in a merger. You need to keep the job first. What will your better seniority get you after arbitration? More 18 day reserve lines (compared to SW 15 day lines)? Bidding against the same pilots in the same bases as you are now, at 50% of the pay?

"717s" only around for 9 years? Ya, that was when they would be paying 737 rates on them, not anymore. Try 12 years+.

Where will the new hires go? the 737 fleet or the 717 fleet? My guess is the 737 fleet with few bids for the 737. Good thing you will be senior to the new hire MDW 737 pilots while your in ATL flying the 717. How many Xmas' will you get off in that scenario? How long are the AT guys going to be stuck in the 717 at 717 pay?

"Seniority is forever"....know what else is forever? The time value of money. $150-$200 PER DAY EVERY DAY this thing doesn't get done....and possibly after it is done too since you can kiss the 737 pay for the 717 away.

Do you AT guys have any idea how many trips you could of dropped at SW and still made a 50% pay raise? There are tons of OT w************************* at SW that would take all your junior trips. You could of worked 10 days a month and still had a 25k a year pay increase. How is that for family life? How long will SW keep scheduling 18 and 19 day months for the 717 guys since they seem so happy flying them?

Point is your "senority" at AT bought you crap. Crappy work rules, crappy schedules, and crappy bases. The bottom SWA guy bidding options are better than 50% of the AT guys.

Epic Fail.

 

[Lear70]

And for the rest of you that are cheering that a fellow union pilot might hit the street let me just tell you that you are a very distateful bunch.

Bears repeating...

 

[redflyer65]

Hate to break the bad news to the SWAPA gang, but it is likely that the arbitrator will place the #1 Airtran pilot at #3 or #4 on the MSL and then continue the ratio on down from there. Oh yes, there will be a lot of fence language and restrictions on the list, but essentially that's how things are going down in arbitration these days.

What kind of fences and restrictions from arbitration do you think is available? The only fence that might possibly come from this is on the 717, because it's a different type. There will be no base fences from arby.

Do you really think the most senior SW captains in Dallas that are pre-1990 hires are going to roll over for a integration with a 1993 AAI captain being ratioed in with them? No way. Not at this airline.

RF

 

[Tarquinn]

Oh quit dreaming, it is out of the question. AAI had two things going for it, a huge presence at one of the worlds busiest airports and competition with Southwest. Alaska has neither, move along and hope for American, you have nothing to offer.

Hope for American..? Out of touch aren't we..? At this point I'm just happy to sit back and watch the show.

 

[Muppets]

What kind of fences and restrictions from arbitration do you think is available? The only fence that might possibly come from this is on the 717, because it's a different type. There will be no base fences from arby.

Do you really think the most senior SW captains in Dallas that are pre-1990 hires are going to roll over for a integration with a 1993 AAI captain being ratioed in with them? No way. Not at this airline.

RF

Just read the SWAPA memo to the pilot group. I couldnt slam that much kool aid back in my frat days! With an answer to your question about "rolling over" for senority.......The arby will help them roll over if thats what is decided. The beauty of the arby is that neither group has a choice in "rolling over" or not. But on a lighter note...I look forward to pulling your gear for you in 2035.

 

[Muppets]

What kind of fences and restrictions from arbitration do you think is available? The only fence that might possibly come from this is on the 717, because it's a different type. There will be no base fences from arby.

Do you really think the most senior SW captains in Dallas that are pre-1990 hires are going to roll over for a integration with a 1993 AAI captain being ratioed in with them? No way. Not at this airline.

RF

Dude, you are Wal-Mart...you bought K-Mart.

 

[DougCorp-9]

We've all paid our dues pal.... I could have gone to ATN in 2003. Instead I stayed at a regional making sub standard wages, living paycheck to paycheck raising a family in the Northeast... Making sacrifices to build the PIC time to be competitive to be hired at SWA.

Simply put - how many Airtran Pilots had applied to Southwest?? Why??

Last question: what would you have done after your 97% strike vote??

6000 pilots at SWA were happy to be put at the BOTTOM of the seniority list the day they got hired. We were all thankful to be number last. We told Gary during our new hire breakfast how happy each and every one of us were to be here... Your pilot group just told Gary to kiss off. That you're not happy to be here... That keeping every captain (even those that upgraded two months ago) in his/her seat was not good enough.. In this economy, you have told Gary your not happy to be part of the SWA family... All I can day at this point is good luck... I have friends at ATN and I really hope you all still get to make it here!

We didn't tell Mr. Kelly anything. We have yet to vote on anything. We will be outstanding employees of SWA and do the best job that we can do. We did not choose this path, it was handed to us just as it was to you. We are simply trying to maintain the QOL that we had before this deal was consummated. We don't expect your QOL to change either. We don't expect you to give anything up. We did not decide to grow Southwest by buying another airline, Mr. Kelly did that. We realize that it change the upgrade times for your FO's just as it does for ours. We realize that we will benefit from your CBA. We would be open to a REASONABLE agreement. EVERYONE'S path has changed because of this. We are pilots just like you and look forward to making this work. Let's let the process that WE ALL agreed to run it's course.

 

[redflyer65]

I could careless who pulls gear for who..I never understood the ego some guys have with having to sit in the left seat, if you making serious money in the right.

You're seriously dreaming if you think a 1993 AAI pilot is going to be anywhere close to a 1970's hired SW Captain. Arby or not..

Sorry to break it to you, but you won't be the big fish in the little pond anymore....your airline was purchased if you haven't heard.

RF

 

[redflyer65]

We didn't tell Mr. Kelly anything. We have yet to vote on anything. We will be outstanding employees of SWA and do the best job that we can do. We did not choose this path, it was handed to us just as it was to you. We are simply trying to maintain the QOL that we had before this deal was consummated. We don't expect your QOL to change either. We don't expect you to give anything up. We did not decide to grow Southwest by buying another airline, Mr. Kelly did that. We realize that it change the upgrade times for your FO's just as it does for ours. We realize that we will benefit from your CBA. We would be open to a REASONABLE agreement. EVERYONE'S path has changed because of this. We are pilots just like you and look forward to making this work. Let's let the process that WE ALL agreed to run it's course.

DC,

I agree with the previous poster when he stated you MIGHT have one more shot to negotiate with the boss before arbitration. It's going to be a tight timeline, but honestly I don't see him handing out anymore money than he had in this deal. I'm not even sure if Mr. Kelly even cares to make a counter offer. What's his tolerance to flush the whole thing and run AAI seperately and begin to transfer assest? That's the 2 Billion dollar question that you guys just turned down.

You can't even make this stuff up it's so crazy. Interesting times for sure.

RF

 

[humveedriver]

What kind of fences and restrictions from arbitration do you think is available? The only fence that might possibly come from this is on the 717, because it's a different type. There will be no base fences from arby.

Do you really think the most senior SW captains in Dallas that are pre-1990 hires are going to roll over for a integration with a 1993 AAI captain being ratioed in with them? No way. Not at this airline.

RF

No way. I agree with you there. But our number one pilot is over age 60 and no threat to your FO's upgrade yet his 93 hire date was thrown in with 97 SWA new hires. I didn't get that.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm not going to argue for this AIP, but these two airlines couldn't be more different on so many fronts. How do you merge an apple and an orange?

They tried to split the baby with this deal, and it was pretty much unpalitable to both sides. Mediation? I hear some AAI guys saying there is still hope...I don't put much hope in that assumption. Neither side is really ready to move off of where they are. Gary throwing more cash toward one side or the other (and I know it may not be about more money for you guys), but most likely won't happen.

RF

 

[Hpilot]

What kind of fences and restrictions from arbitration do you think is available? The only fence that might possibly come from this is on the 717, because it's a different type. There will be no base fences from arby.

Do you really think the most senior SW captains in Dallas that are pre-1990 hires are going to roll over for a integration with a 1993 AAI captain being ratioed in with them? No way. Not at this airline.

RF

Hate to break it to you, but the arbitrator is not going to give a poop that Southwest's union thinks Southwest is the best airline out there. Most likely it will be relative seniority, with fences provided for differing equipment.

 

[humveedriver]

DC,

I agree with the previous poster when he stated you MIGHT have one more shot to negotiate with the boss before arbitration. It's going to be a tight timeline, but honestly I don't see him handing out anymore money than he had in this deal. I'm not even sure if Mr. Kelly even cares to make a counter offer. What's his tolerance to flush the whole thing and run AAI seperately and begin to transfer assest? That's the 2 Billion dollar question that you guys just turned down.

You can't even make this stuff up it's so crazy. Interesting times for sure.

RF

GK "gave" the money to the WRONG pilot group with his deal. He should have given you guys the lion share of the financial benefit and let us keep a higher seniority number. The number of informed AT pilots who want "relative" seniority is tiny, because most do understand the retirement situation.

 

[Max Powers]

I'm an outsider looking in and and all I (we) can say is WOW! IT is a crazy mix of emotions watching a group pissing away their future.

I read all this talk about "seniority is everything/forever"....time to get another paper route, cause it ain't. Not in a merger. You need to keep the job first. What will your better seniority get you after arbitration? More 18 day reserve lines (compared to SW 15 day lines)? Bidding against the same pilots in the same bases as you are now, at 50% of the pay?

"717s" only around for 9 years? Ya, that was when they would be paying 737 rates on them, not anymore. Try 12 years+.

Where will the new hires go? the 737 fleet or the 717 fleet? My guess is the 737 fleet with few bids for the 737. Good thing you will be senior to the new hire MDW 737 pilots while your in ATL flying the 717. How many Xmas' will you get off in that scenario? How long are the AT guys going to be stuck in the 717 at 717 pay?

"Seniority is forever"....know what else is forever? The time value of money. $150-$200 PER DAY EVERY DAY this thing doesn't get done....and possibly after it is done too since you can kiss the 737 pay for the 717 away.

Do you AT guys have any idea how many trips you could of dropped at SW and still made a 50% pay raise? There are tons of OT w************************* at SW that would take all your junior trips. You could of worked 10 days a month and still had a 25k a year pay increase. How is that for family life? How long will SW keep scheduling 18 and 19 day months for the 717 guys since they seem so happy flying them?

Point is your "senority" at AT bought you crap. Crappy work rules, crappy schedules, and crappy bases. The bottom SWA guy bidding options are better than 50% of the AT guys.

Epic Fail.

Step back from the crack pipe junior. My seniority at AirTran as an FO buys me 19 days off 3 weekends and 110k a year. Your SWAPA scraps offered to me were a pissy staple with a 25 percent wage. No thanks. I'll take the risks in arbitration. Where are you getting this 50 percent raise with dropped trips?

 

[redflyer65]

Hate to break it to you, but the arbitrator is not going to give a poop that Southwest's union thinks Southwest is the best airline out there. Most likely it will be relative seniority, with fences provided for differing equipment.

Apples and oranges brother. If it's relative, I seriously doubt the list will ever be acted on, but good luck with that.

 

[DougCorp-9]

DC,

I agree with the previous poster when he stated you MIGHT have one more shot to negotiate with the boss before arbitration. It's going to be a tight timeline, but honestly I don't see him handing out anymore money than he had in this deal. I'm not even sure if Mr. Kelly even cares to make a counter offer. What's his tolerance to flush the whole thing and run AAI seperately and begin to transfer assest? That's the 2 Billion dollar question that you guys just turned down.

You can't even make this stuff up it's so crazy. Interesting times for sure.

RF

Have you even bothered to read our scope section? MV sent a letter agreeing to all of it. You should at least educate yourself before making such statements.

 

[redflyer65]

Have you even bothered to read our scope section? MV sent a letter agreeing to all of it. You should at least educate yourself before making such statements.

A real letter. Wow! Nice attempt at threating something with very little leverage. I'm starting to think that SL8 might start coming into play at some point.