Another Airtran/SWA cockpit thread

[madjack]

A ratio after 1993 would be basically relative seniority after 1993 (most AAI pilots were hired after 2001)...I thought you said RS was windfall for AAI?...this is all moot of course, we have an AIP to vote or not vote on then off to the judges if one/both groups vote it down (assuming it gets out of the AAI MEC), our union says it will go straight to arby given the short timeline of the PA...some argue that there is time for more negotiations but that is not what SWAPA is saying...

 

[dicko]

The core problem is that if the AIP passes, you're going to have that kind of bitterness infecting your flight decks for DECADES. Is that what you really want?

I disagree. When it's done .... It's done. We'll move on.

The FO needs to have a little non punitive chat with Pro Standards. If he's that pissed off or that immature then this stuff is obviously affecting his performance. More than most.

 

[Fubijaakr]

A ratio after 1993 would be basically relative seniority after 1993 (most AAI pilots were hired after 2001...

Perhaps, but AAI's orginal position (as I understand it) was relative position. That would have been a huge windfall for AAI guys and totally unacceptable.

Some form of post-'93 ratio is a much fairer way to go for all concerned. You could adjust the ratio to account for year hired. For instance, take all the '94 hires at both companies and ratio them together. Then the '95s. Then the '96s.

Of course that would create a bulge in years where one or the other companies didn't hire. A straight post '93 ratio would prevent that.

If this AIP gets voted down, I think you'll see something along those lines from the arbitrator. The pay raise issue probably won't play because comparing this merger to the Shuttle America fiasco is apples to oranges.

 

[retired guy]

I disagree. When it's done .... It's done. We'll move on.


I`m gonna have to disagree with you on this. I wish both sides the best of luck with your senority list, but I`ve been through three of these fights and I can tell you that it is never over. I`ve seen and heard of everything from mild disagreements to fights in the parking lot. It`s just the way things are and will be.

 

[waveflyer]

If I was a stapled AAI FO I would be pissed, but I am a 11 year SWA FO with junior DOH AAI CPs standing to make 60-70K more than I will for many years to come...welcome to the airline business...

Really? You'd be pissed? So Our bottom FO's accomplishment and the years they took achieving it vs isn't worth a few years of seniority? that much younger group ought to be senior to us for the rest of our CAREER? We should now retire a 1000#'s junior than what we were going to bc GK decided to buy a smaller younger carrier?

Sorry- but you call it "stapling" and your buying into their alpa propaganda that they're somehow getting screwed bc short term they might be junior. Remember - they are still going to RETIRE at the top- and with 650 at the bottom, there's still 1000#'s going on top of CJ and probably 7-800 above me- about half of which are younger than our guys and so will ALWAYS be senior.

I'm thinking about voting no- just bc of your situation MJ- I don't think it's right that junior capts there will be making a lot more-
But maybe you could have our back too. At least not buy into the ALPA repeat often propaganda.

 

[General Lee]

I know this has already been discussed but because of the experience I had yesterday, I felt it needed to be readdressed. Long story short, I was nonreving on Airtran and as always, I let the cockpit crew know I was there. The captain was a great guy and gave me a warm welcome. The FO, was completely immature and decided to take the low road. He refused to shake my hand and turned around in a huff only to start bitching about the SLI proposal loud enough that I, as well as the paying customers, could hear it in the PAX cabin.

I understand he feels pretty insulted by the AIP but he has to know that I had nothing to do with it. I am not even sure I am going to vote for it. I know he is frustrated with the process but to be unprofessional toward a fellow pilot and act like a baby is poor form. He can direct his anger upward at those who made this happen but he has to realize regular line swine like me are along for the ride just like him, only armed with a vote if it even comes to it.

I feel certain we have some on our side that need to be policed as well. Trust me, I will be glad to help with that any way I can. However, for those of us that commute, please keep is professional, I just want to get to work like I always have.

Sincerely,
jball2
An ATL commuter

I know how you can help him, vote NO and send it back to the negotiators. You would feel the same way if you were on the other side.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I disagree. When it's done .... It's done. We'll move on.

The FO needs to have a little non punitive chat with Pro Standards. If he's that pissed off or that immature then this stuff is obviously affecting his performance. More than most.

No way. Ask how the Green book and Red Book guys think since that NWA merger 20 years ago. There are still confrontations between those groups, even during the latest merger. If you don't treat both sides fairly, there will be animosity. Why wasn't there a joint contract done first at SWA/Airtran? Why hold the pay over the Airtran guys' heads? That is crazy, and leaves bitter feelings. I hope it works out to be fair for everyone, and equal pay comes sooner than later.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[IslandDriver]

I jumped BWI to BOS last week on AAI. We had a 30 minute gate hold so I went up front to say hello. I started in on the different way we fly the same plane...was on a 73....kept it all light and "aviation" related...ended up talking for like 45 minutes...we all had fun exchanging stories...never really talked about the SLI kept it fun and proffesional...two nice guys...and I am junior at SWA....why waste hate and anger over something we only have 1 vote over. When it is all done we will all have to just get over it and enjoy our jobs...it couldalways be worse.

 

[madjack]

wave,

no offense but stapling 650 AAI FOs seems not fair and equitable...just as much so as having a 2005-6 AAI CP making more than I do as an 11 year SWA FO for the next 9 years...we all have our opinion and it won't matter bc the AAI MEC will never let this get to a vote...

 

[dicko]

I disagree. When it's done .... It's done. We'll move on.


I`m gonna have to disagree with you on this. I wish both sides the best of luck with your senority list, but I`ve been through three of these fights and I can tell you that it is never over. I`ve seen and heard of everything from mild disagreements to fights in the parking lot. It`s just the way things are and will be.

Maybe you're right. I'll never ignore history, nor will I ignore experience. I can only tell you how I'll behave.

Having said that; An interesting and amusing anecdote:

One of our pilots had the infamous SWA pilot 'SundownerS3' on an AirTran jumpseat as he was traveling home to Florida. Despite his vitriol on this board, and his spite .... He spent the flight sleeping, drooling and talking about the fact he'd never be a Captain at SWA because he'd spent to long in the Navy and at JetBlue. He's actually quite normal and apparently comes across as a decent guy.

The AirTran Captain who carried him never mentioned that he knew who he was. They shook hands and went on their way.

 

[Ty Webb]

Maybe you're right. I'll never ignore history, nor will I ignore experience. I can only tell you how I'll behave.

Having said that; An interesting and amusing anecdote:

One of our pilots had the infamous SWA pilot 'SundownerS3' on an AirTran jumpseat as he was traveling home to Florida. Despite his vitriol on this board, and his spite .... He spent the flight sleeping, drooling and talking about the fact he'd never be a Captain at SWA because he'd spent to long in the Navy and at JetBlue. He's actually quite normal and apparently comes across as a decent guy.

The AirTran Captain who carried him ne
ver mentioned that he knew who he was. They shook hands and went on their way.

I hadn't heard that. I haven't seen him on here in a while. I'd like
to think that he came to the conclusion that we're all just airline pilots, and not the enemy.

 

[texman]

I disagree. When it's done .... It's done. We'll move on.

The FO needs to have a little non punitive chat with Pro Standards. If he's that pissed off or that immature then this stuff is obviously affecting his performance. More than most.

While you are correct, you fail to understand the concept of taking a walk in another person's shoes. A good experienced capt should know this. Are you one of those Gulfstream guys? Never spent much time as a FO? Well you will understand that swa is not that way. Think internal customer service.

 

[waveflyer]

wave,

no offense but stapling 650 AAI FOs seems not fair and equitable...just as much so as having a 2005-6 AAI CP making more than I do as an 11 year SWA FO for the next 9 years...we all have our opinion and it won't matter bc the AAI MEC will never let this get to a vote...

You've got to be f^cking kidding me. I'm glad most Swapa pilots intensely disagree with you. I don't even think most AT FOs that got stapled disagree. You just got to selfish irrelevant status. But good try attempting to win points from the AT pilots for your cause by throwing the junior FOs under the bus. That's how United cultures start- You feel like the senior threw you under the bus w/ age 65 and bc of recession timing- you deserved more- well if it means you can get your upgrade by arguing against the junior FOs, well that's the breaks and your upgrade now is much more important than me being junior to bought AT pilots for the next 25 years.
AT LEAST 650 AT pilots should be stapled if you at the long term picture.
I'm sorry, but I'd rather have the next 3-5 years be unfair for them- and I guess you MJ, than have the next 20 years be unfair to my group.

 

[On Your Six]

You've got to be f^cking kidding me. I'm glad most Swapa pilots intensely disagree with you. I don't even think most AT FOs that got stapled disagree. You just got to selfish irrelevant status. But good try attempting to win points from the AT pilots for your cause by throwing the junior FOs under the bus. That's how United cultures start- You feel like the senior threw you under the bus w/ age 65 and bc of recession timing- you deserved more- well if it means you can get your upgrade by arguing against the junior FOs, well that's the breaks and your upgrade now is much more important than me being junior to bought AT pilots for the next 25 years.
AT LEAST 650 AT pilots should be stapled if you at the long term picture.
I'm sorry, but I'd rather have the next 3-5 years be unfair for them- and I guess you MJ, than have the next 20 years be unfair to my group.

So, how do you really feel? An arbitrator would laugh at your remarks.



OYS

 

[waveflyer]

OYS-I thought we already informed you that the whole Internet could care less what your inexperience tells you to think.

 

[Metrojet]

If I was a stapled AAI FO I would be pissed, but I am a 11 year SWA FO with junior DOH AAI CPs standing to make 60-70K more than I will for many years to come...welcome to the airline business...

Now you guys know how we feel over here at USAIRWAYS, it is hard to understand until your standing in the others persons shoes!

I sincerely hope your merger goes better.

Metrojet

 

[wood pecker]

For the fo's that I know, it is not just the staple job and it is not we want to be senior to every one at WN. Now that SL9 is out, there are more undefined, unclear loop holes than are in our scheduling section.

If you told me, "hey fo you will be stapled and will get a pay raise and some of you will have to move but you will for sure be under SW contract and your 717 will be around then that is a definite."

Unfortunately the only part that is a sure thing is the staple part. We are familiar with the hopes of a sure thing with our 2.5 year upgrades that did not happen b/c of the economy. We are familiar w/ our previous regionals promising growth if we can lower cost via concessions. We are familiar w/ the fact that another airline could be bought tomorrow that further kicks us to the curb.


Our union people can't even convince each other so how in the hell are they going to convince the group? They need return to the table.

I can't believe how much this whole thing got screwed up. I am pretty sure a couple of pilots could have done a better job while sitting at a bar. At least it would have been clear cut and defined minus all the bs.

They should have taken a poll of what each group wants and I am pretty sure senority would have been the top item as it is all that matters. The rest can be erased w/ a hurricane, fleet grounding, or what ever hits us like a plague of locust.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You've got to be f^cking kidding me....than me being junior to bought AT pilots for the next 25 years.
AT LEAST 650 AT pilots should be stapled if you at the long term picture.
I'm sorry, but I'd rather have the next 3-5 years be unfair for them....

Thanks for showing your true canyon blue colors...an arrogant, selfish jerk who is only interested in HIS upgrade and willing to steal the rightful seniority of his soon to be peers.

And you wonder why there will be long term lingering bitterness in SWA cockpits FOR DECADES.

 

[Tripower455]

wave,

no offense but stapling 650 AAI FOs seems not fair and equitable...just as much so as having a 2005-6 AAI CP making more than I do as an 11 year SWA FO for the next 9 years...we all have our opinion and it won't matter bc the AAI MEC will never let this get to a vote...

That number (650) is not far from the number of AT guys with active applications at SW on 9/27.

And these guys get our longevity pay on top of it, and no probation, interview, type etc.

 

[dicko]

While you are correct, you fail to understand the concept of taking a walk in another person's shoes. A good experienced capt should know this. Are you one of those Gulfstream guys? Never spent much time as a FO? Well you will understand that swa is not that way. Think internal customer service.

"While you are correct, you fail to understand"...WTF are you talking about ? Did you even read the original post by 'JBall', who is a SWA pilot ? The post I was responding to.

No I'm not a Gulfstream guy. Were you hammered when you posted this Tex ? Or is reading comprehension not your thing.

 

[madjack]

From a seniority perspective, arby is more risky for SWA, we all know that, including Mr Kelly who came to the NC/MC and sweetened the deal with SWA pay rates, no probation etc...

 

[jball2]

Dicko- I appreciated your response!

 

[Fubijaakr]

From a seniority perspective, arby is more risky for SWA, we all know that, including Mr Kelly who came to the NC/MC and sweetened the deal with SWA pay rates, no probation etc...

True. Because you KNOW the "pay windfall" argument is a non-starter. And that's the excuse the SWA boys are using to steal the AAI seniority.

 

[dicko]

Dicko- I appreciated your response!

No worries. I think you rode our J/S a few years back. Maybe 2.

You predicted the merger and the 717's being included in the deal.

 

[jball2]

Somehow, I have felt this coming for years. It just made sense.

There is a good chance I was on your JS. I have been doing the ATL-MDW thing for a long time. Other than last Sunday, you guys have been GREAT! Don't worry, I won't let one guy ruin it for the rest!

 

[ChinaClipper]

Hey, tell the FO he is getting a WAYYYYYY BETTER deal than the F9 guys were "offered" Guess perception IS reality? BTW You ALL are welcome on the F9 Jumpseat! Even though we get snarky comments on the radio in DEN form WN occasionally! PEACE brothers PEACE!

 

[waveflyer]

From a seniority perspective, arby is more risky for SWA, we all know that, including Mr Kelly who came to the NC/MC and sweetened the deal with SWA pay rates, no probation etc...

That's correct - for swa - not necessarily for Swapa-

We're leading this thing- for all groups- if we go to arbitration- then a whole lot of other groups will too-

And the cultural ripple effect makes arby way more risky for AT pilots- the nuclear option doesn't get considered until that road is taken.

And here's the problem- An F9 guy on here still feeling disrespected by the staple offer from Wn which would have had everyone there in a much better position in every way than they currently are after the republic sli--- yet he's still bitter about it- whereas a new hire on probation making half the money is happy beyond belief.

 

[texman]

"While you are correct, you fail to understand"...WTF are you talking about ? Did you even read the original post by 'JBall', who is a SWA pilot ? The post I was responding to.

No I'm not a Gulfstream guy. Were you hammered when you posted this Tex ? Or is reading comprehension not your thing.

I am in the wrong. Yes you are right. I did not read the full thread. I was being a smart azz. I forgot to put a LOL at the end. I was not drunk. But today I will be.

 

[General Lee]

Thanks for showing your true canyon blue colors...an arrogant, selfish jerk who is only interested in HIS upgrade and willing to steal the rightful seniority of his soon to be peers.

And you wonder why there will be long term lingering bitterness in SWA cockpits FOR DECADES.

With attitudes like his, you can expect it. Unbelievable.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

From a seniority perspective, arby is more risky for SWA, we all know that, including Mr Kelly who came to the NC/MC and sweetened the deal with SWA pay rates, no probation etc...

No probation? So wait, you would make guys go on probation in a merger even if they had no problems with their current airline and have more than one year there? You have got to be kidding me? Oh yeah, the SWA guys are all that and a bag of chips.....


Bye Bye---General Lee