Are SWA/AAI guys worried?

[BlueBlood]

Honest question.

With the economy starting to tank, again, are any of you worried that Gary may have to get creative to keep from furloughing and/or go another direction? I read the article where Gary and Co. are less than bullish on the 717 and I was curious if anyone out there had an opinion on what he could do to weather this coming storm.

I have dear friends on both sides and would hate to see the economy tank what could have been a good thing.

 

[madjack]

Economy has been tanking, Mr Kelly and others knew what they were doing when they bought AAI, what they may not have bargained for is the ALPA vs management mindset and its affect on the feel goodness at SWA...

This deal is going through...AIP or arby

SWA will never be the same place...

 

[scoreboardII]

Lets put it in perspective, the article also stated the leases run trough 2024, so there is no near term attempt to ditch the 717, to costly. Although, you (not you personally) would be foolish to think the 717's would stick around longer than 2024, they are a legacy airframe. So the 717 bullish talk is a red hearing.

With note the the current 1000pt DOW drop, if I was on the buying end of the deal, I would be running to the voting booth to get my seat on the gravy train before it leaves the station. No assigned seating required.

 

[PropPiedmont]

GK could always put the 717s on leasetrader.com.

 

[Ty Webb]

With note the the current 1000pt DOW drop, if I was on the buying end of the deal, I would be running to the voting booth to get my seat on the gravy train before it leaves the station. No assigned seating required.

I'm pissed. I was up over 30% for the year. Now I'm up just 6%. :angryfire

 

[luv2fly]

+30%; now -3.5% this sucks!

 

[AFcitrus]

Sounds like my seniority loss with the AIP!

 

[jonjuan]

I'm pissed. I was up over 30% for the year. Now I'm up just 6%. :angryfire

Man-ever heard of diversification? It's a marathon.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm pissed. I was up over 30% for the year. Now I'm up just 6%. :angryfire

Gotta learn how and when to go short...I'm riding the gravy train. Stop loses are important too.

I agree with Scoreboard, there is no reason to think the 717 is going away. Think of it this way.. SW never pays top dollar for anything, you think they are going to turn them in with massive penatlies looming? Think again guys, ain't gonna happen.

RF

 

[On Your Six]

Sounds like my seniority loss with the AIP!

No that was funny and sad at the same time.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Gotta learn how and when to go short...I'm riding the gravy train. Stop loses are important too.

I agree with Scoreboard, there is no reason to think the 717 is going away. Think of it this way.. SW never pays top dollar for anything, you think they are going to turn them in with massive penatlies looming? Think again guys, ain't gonna happen.

RF

Have GK put that in writing about the 717s or at least a stronger no furlough clause, etc.(one with penalties and force mejuer language). That should help.


OYS

 

[redflyer65]

Whatever OYS,

Enjoy being number 30 for takeoff behind all those RJ's in JFK, ATL, and DTW...and pretty much any other hub you guys have. Haha.

RF

 

[waveflyer]

Sounds like my seniority loss with the AIP!

I'm getting tired of the math deficient using this stat (ie: lie)

You're built from the same brilliant minds at AA who think that after a 35% paycut, that a 35% pay raise will equalize it.

(airline pilots are just really dumb smart people.)

If you want to talk about your 30% seniority loss- please include what your loss would be under DOH. Your wet dream agreement would have you losing well over 20%- so you're really just b/tching - about ....? .... No longer being a big fish in a LITTLE pond. Sounds like you'd have preferred organic growth - yeah- well us too. Keep the stats and %'s, there mr brilliant.

 

[AFcitrus]

I think I touched a nerve there Wave. When nwa or delta talk about lost seniority they do so from relative %. Relative is the norm by which all SLI comparisons are made. Who knows how this SLI will ultimately turn out but please don't take any sh!t sandwich I may or may not receive and call it peanut butter and jelly.

 

[waveflyer]

So the age difference is unimportant? Just like your huge upgrade equivalent payraise and better work environment and schedule? GMAFB- we shouldn't take anyone who has so little perspective as to think this is a "sh/t sandwich"

This is not a merger of equals as DL/NW was

 

[jonjuan]

So the age difference is unimportant? Just like your huge upgrade equivalent payraise and better work environment and schedule? GMAFB- we shouldn't take anyone who has so little perspective as to think this is a "sh/t sandwich"

This is not a merger of equals as DL/NW was

I personally know of 4 Mesa dudes who went from CFI to Mesa (bottom feeder regional) to SWA in 3 years. All were hired under 30. There are many, many, many cases of folks getting hired A) young, and B) not "putting in their time" as you so aptly put it.
Your mantra seems to be the swa dudes are older and more qualified, i.e. put in more time, cared more, had more LUV, etc. That's NOT true. That's why the big deal will get sent to an independent arbitrator who will really decide the real deal.

 

[madjack]

That's why the big deal will get sent to an independent arbitrator who will really decide the real deal.

I am afraid that JJ is probably right, militant/F(*& management ALPA is going to let Mr Kelly, Mr VDV, Mr McCrady know whose boss...I am wondering if our management is having some regrets that AAI happens to come with 1700 pilots who voted 98% to strike...

 

[GuppyWN]

I personally know of 4 Mesa dudes who went from CFI to Mesa (bottom feeder regional) to SWA in 3 years. All were hired under 30. There are many, many, many cases of folks getting hired A) young, and B) not "putting in their time" as you so aptly put it.
Your mantra seems to be the swa dudes are older and more qualified, i.e. put in more time, cared more, had more LUV, etc. That's NOT true. That's why the big deal will get sent to an independent arbitrator who will really decide the real deal.

No Juan,

You guys are an average of 10 years younger than we are. That means our career expectations would get clogged by a list full of Airtran guys if there were no adjustment.

Even WITH the current adjustment Airtran pilots will DOMINATE the WN seniority list around that 2020 point.

Gup

 

[jonjuan]

No Juan,

You guys are an average of 10 years younger than we are.

New-hires the past 10 years average 10 years younger at AT?

 

[Tripower455]

I personally know of 4 Mesa dudes who went from CFI to Mesa (bottom feeder regional) to SWA in 3 years. All were hired under 30. There are many, many, many cases of folks getting hired A) young, and B) not "putting in their time" as you so aptly put it.
Your mantra seems to be the swa dudes are older and more qualified, i.e. put in more time, cared more, had more LUV, etc. That's NOT true. That's why the big deal will get sent to an independent arbitrator who will really decide the real deal.

Not to speak for WF, but we are an older group, meaning that every younger guy put in front of us is a permanent loss in seniority, as in forever, whereas an older guy put in front of you will retire before you at some point, allowing you to move up. You really think you "deserve" to dominate our list and that's "fair and equitable" to the organic SW guys?

There are far less of those "hired young" guys here than at AT. We've had very few 30 year old Captains here, ever. Maybe in the very early days.

Heck, I had just turned 31 when I got hired, and was the third youngest in my class, and will be under #50 when I retire.

 

[Flycatcher99]

I personally know of 4 Mesa dudes who went from CFI to Mesa (bottom feeder regional) to SWA in 3 years. All were hired under 30. There are many, many, many cases of folks getting hired A) young, and B) not "putting in their time" as you so aptly put it.
Your mantra seems to be the swa dudes are older and more qualified, i.e. put in more time, cared more, had more LUV, etc. That's NOT true. That's why the big deal will get sent to an independent arbitrator who will really decide the real deal.

Okay, I'm throwing the BS flag out on this one.

I was at Mesa for seven years, and I personally know of exactly two guys who got hired at SWA with 4-5 years Mesa experience, no less. I have serious doubts that you know even one guy, much less four, that left Mesa for SWA in 3 years.

And even if it were true, you are cherry-picking a couple of guys to make your point. Go ask your union about the relative ages. It's a fact that the trannies are younger, and much moreso. This was absolutely a factor in the negotiations, as it would be with an arbitrator.

 

['LUVIN LIFE]

If I were AAI I would have two thoughts:

My new CEO just offered us a SLI which he helped craft and his boys (SWAPA) voted 19-0 to keep it, we should too, especially being offered equal pay in today's times. Play nice.

Or play old school. Tell new CEO that our 1700 pilots are different than his 6000, we don't play games. Tank his offer and go to Arby. Now I lose 717 pay rates (negotiated by SWA and SWAPA), no guarantee fences, seat lock, etc. New CEO not happy with new group... think there will still be open arms?

Disclaimer... I want this SLI to work. I want SWA culture to stay. I want AAI pilots to make big money like us. You brought airplanes, I expect you to keep portion of Captain seats (which you get all now).

Just wondering what your thoughts are if you play hardball with our CEO, because that is who would be turned down, not SWAPA.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Gary has talked to another operator about the 717s. Fact.

 

[scoreboardII]

Of course he is, look at the hardball ALPA is throwing him, he is going to cover all the bases.

 

[Ty Webb]

Newsflash . . . . No one's playing "hardball with Gary".

We're making sure that what was agreed to in the AIP is spelled out in clear language in a final Agreement. You can be sure that "Gary" understands the necessity of having the clear language.

What's your rush, anyway? This thing is going to move at a glacial pace as it is. Our guys won't see any pay boost until their May 2012 paycheck . . . . 30 months to transition, before any extensions? I think we can afford to take the time to get the language right, don't you?

 

[4day]

Just got word that there will be no MEC vote this week. WTF are they doing over there. The Communications chair quit this morning over a heated phone call with one of our MEC members. The trust is gone and never to return. I cant say it all ALPA but our MEC members. They are a dysfunctional group to say the least.

 

[waveflyer]

The hurry is Gary wants this done- we're leading all the other work groups- our FAs are WAY stronger than us- if we go to arby, then there is almost zero chance any of the other groups won't and this has a much larger effect on the corporate culture- next thing you know GARY'S waiting on provisioners and dispatchers to get appointment with the NMB to realize the "synergies" and bad blood AT v SWA continues to develop. I think he understands that integration is a time critical thing- we won't hate each other if we can get this hammered out and start working together- but allow too much time to pass.... And it's probably better to sell the 717's and hire off the street for ATL- and maybe you guys can work something out with the state department to go to Mexico or Malaysia where those 717's land, but MB won't apply bc it's not half the airline-

having the AIP clearly spelled out is fine- but we all know there is also a contingent among you, PCL leading it, that is just buying time, getting more dues, and figuring out how to tank this. He's a self entitled trust fund baby. Money's not a big deal, and He'd rather have to find another job and get to an ALPA carrier where he can not fly for a living- maybe he's already got connections through ALPA national who'll hook him up if he does a good enough job poisoning the well here...Don't think there are side doors into every big airline for a few.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry, man, but if all you want to do is vent your spleen, insult our pilots, and make threats against our jobs. . . well, you have fun. No one is buying it. I've got better things to do, and I think most other pilots do, too.

See ya around.

 

[Daddy]

Gary has talked to another operator about the 717s. Fact.

This one is getting legs...there was a big change of tune when I went to training this week with regard to the 717's. There wasn't near as much of the hullaballoo about the sims coming and whatnot. It was much akin to the change in tune of that place a year after i had the audacity to ask about automation. Torti went off on a tangent then about how we dont want to lose our piloting skills and whatnot....one year later it was all about saving gas with autothrottles and VNAV (duh) which had been my point when I brought it up the first time. Something is afoot on the 717 front...high CASM, bad engines, dealing them to Delta for the 800's or something...wish I knew what it was. I keep hearing from Delta guys about a swap, but they are the only ones I hear about it from.

 

[BlueBlood]

Furloughed from Delta and one of my buddies from Georgia Tech is in Network Planning and Revenue Management. The 717 rumor is not a baseless rumor. I couldn't nail him down, but the 717 offers a significant opportunity for DAL as do the additional airframes in the desert. Interesting to say the least.