Ual and cal alpa should

[sniper]

Do not cooaperate with management, wait, have them Keep both companies separate, UAL management eventually will recall all of their pilots or whoever comes back, 30% max will come back I think.

Then merge with relative seniority like Delta did with NWA.

No raise till then and no pilot will be f---d.





My 2 cents

 

[Skippy]

Dont do black tar heroine and then post. Thanks for the laugh

 

[sniper]

Dont do black tar heroine and then post. Thanks for the laugh[/QUO




I would love to educate you a little bit, but you are too young.

Ask your teacher at school tomorrow to show you how to look or google,

Texas Air - Eastern Airlines/Continental Airlines, how did they ran different by a sc--- named Lorenzo.


Then get back to us at FI

 

[SteelerMan]

Do not cooaperate with management, wait, have them Keep both companies separate, UAL management eventually will recall all of their pilots or whoever comes back, 30% max will come back I think.

Then merge with relative seniority like Delta did with NWA.

No raise till then and no pilot will be f---d.





My 2 cents

Who would be f---d if you did relative seniority now, without recalls? No one.

 

[sniper]

Who would be f---d if you did relative seniority now, without recalls? No one.

1437 UAL pilots.............99 seniority and thereafter

 

[Yuppyguppy]

true statement

 

[SteelerMan]

true statement

I guess you guys are saying furloughed guys need to be integrated, even though they are not on property. I actually thought you would say 97-99 hires would be getting screwed, cause of their discrepancy in longevity with CAL guys. Everybody has their opinion, but I think including furloughed guys would be a windfall for UAL. Who knows, the arbitrator will decide.

 

[waveflyer]

Is united starting to go the way of USAIR east??

Bc that sounded like it-

If you've been hanging out at the bottom of united since 9/11, how do you not know you're exposed? How can you have the expectation of something better than relative?

The breaks suck- but do any UAL pilots want to lobby alpa to go back to a straight DOH policy. B/c you can't contemplate a merger with the old USAIR and be all about relative or better, and then 10 years later actually merge w/ CO and want more credit for longevity. It's a flimsy deal to always make the argument that suits you.

But you do have the democratic numbers over CO, just like the east and west.
I'd love to see some commitment out of UAL guys that they won't go that route. Bc none of can afford two of them.

 

[snoopbomb]

Longevity argument will be moot soon anyway because all of the ual furloughs will have less time on property than the most junior CAL pilot.

 

[MECH]

Do not cooaperate with management, wait, have them Keep both companies separate, UAL management eventually will recall all of their pilots or whoever comes back, 30% max will come back I think.

Then merge with relative seniority like Delta did with NWA.

No raise till then and no pilot will be f---d.





My 2 cents

Or United could just furlough another 500 pilots on January 15, 2012. United pilots lose their furlough protection at the end of 2011. Also United is over staffed. If history shows us any thing. It is that Continental management likes as few pilots as possible.

So keep your advice, hold out till next year. Maybe the company can find 500 more pilots to use as hostages. It would help the CAL-ALPA merger committee. In the argument, that a 2007 hire CAL pilot should be senior to a UAL 1995 hire using the relative seniority model.

 

[ATRCA]

Do not cooaperate with management, wait, have them Keep both companies separate, UAL management eventually will recall all of their pilots or whoever comes back, 30% max will come back I think.

Then merge with relative seniority like Delta did with NWA.

No raise till then and no pilot will be f---d.





My 2 cents

I agree! Lets keep the separate for another 24 months minimum. CAL takes all of it's scheduled deliveries, UAL takes theirs (zero), UAL furloughed pilots are not recalled to CAL and CAL hires off the street. In a few years we'll get back to the SLI, after the TPA expires. This sounds perfectly fair to me.

I think we can all agree on this right?

 

[Jetjockey]

Do not cooaperate with management, wait, have them Keep both companies separate, UAL management eventually will recall all of their pilots or whoever comes back, 30% max will come back I think.

Then merge with relative seniority like Delta did with NWA.

No raise till then and no pilot will be f---d.





My 2 cents

Huh?????

 

[Flopgut]

How about no one discuss SLI until the contract is done?! Do the right thing on the contract and everybody will have a spot on the list that is worth coming back to...

 

[eaglesview]

I agree! Lets keep the separate for another 24 months minimum. CAL takes all of it's scheduled deliveries, UAL takes theirs (zero), UAL furloughed pilots are not recalled to CAL and CAL hires off the street. In a few years we'll get back to the SLI, after the TPA expires. This sounds perfectly fair to me.

I think we can all agree on this right?

The sacred "snapshot" has already been taken. CO can take ALL of their deliveries and still won't have the widebodies UA has.

 

[eaglesview]

Is united starting to go the way of USAIR east??

Bc that sounded like it-

If you've been hanging out at the bottom of united since 9/11, how do you not know you're exposed? How can you have the expectation of something better than relative?

The breaks suck- but do any UAL pilots want to lobby alpa to go back to a straight DOH policy. B/c you can't contemplate a merger with the old USAIR and be all about relative or better, and then 10 years later actually merge w/ CO and want more credit for longevity. It's a flimsy deal to always make the argument that suits you.

But you do have the democratic numbers over CO, just like the east and west.
I'd love to see some commitment out of UAL guys that they won't go that route. Bc none of can afford two of them.

Because anyone that thinks UA didn't get rid of all it's 737's, including models that CO flies today just to make the merger happen is nuts. Also ALPA does now have LOS in the merger agreement. So you tell me how you tell the right seat narrow body pilot at UA who will end up in the left seat on a widebody in the end that he should give that up to some CO pilot that would other wise have not.

 

[eaglesview]

How about no one discuss SLI until the contract is done?! Do the right thing on the contract and everybody will have a spot on the list that is worth coming back to...

You are correct in theory but I doubt there will be much agreement on what the right thing is.

 

[Deerkiller]

edit: I'm not gonna get into a back in forth in regard to the list. The arbitrator will decide.

 

[Flopgut]

You are correct in theory but I doubt there will be much agreement on what the right thing is.

I think there will be. There should be a lot of good spots for everybody to settle into.

And check your PMs....

 

[davessn763]

Longevity argument will be moot soon anyway because all of the ual furloughs will have less time on property than the most junior CAL pilot.

The recently returned furloughs at CAL have about 6-12 months of longevity.

 

[ATRCA]

The sacred "snapshot" has already been taken. CO can take ALL of their deliveries and still won't have the widebodies UA has.

That's a good one. BTW, how many widebodies did AWA have?

 

[catIIIc]

As a 2006 hire at CAL I can hold 777 fo in EWR, 756 FO at any base and currently hold 40% on the 737 in IAH. I was to be a widebody captain in 15 years, in fact our 97-98 hires are 756 captains right now, so what does this merger bring me that I could not already hold. So eaglesview are you not going to abide by the arbitrators decision if you don't like the outcome? Do you think I should be back on reserve after the SLI, or furloughed? I just want to still be able to hold weekends off and summer and spring break vacations, that was my expectations before the merger. I don't want anything I didn't bring to merger just don't take what I brought either.

 

[Skyflyin]

] ALPA does now have LOS in the merger agreement.

Just out of curiosity, how much length of service does the most senior furloughed United pilot have? Is it 1997-2001 then 2004-2005 for a total of 6 years?

 

[eaglesview]

As a 2006 hire at CAL I can hold 777 fo in EWR, 756 FO at any base and currently hold 40% on the 737 in IAH. I was to be a widebody captain in 15 years, in fact our 97-98 hires are 756 captains right now, so what does this merger bring me that I could not already hold. So eaglesview are you not going to abide by the arbitrators decision if you don't like the outcome? Do you think I should be back on reserve after the SLI, or furloughed? I just want to still be able to hold weekends off and summer and spring break vacations, that was my expectations before the merger. I don't want anything I didn't bring to merger just don't take what I brought either.

OK so lets flip this around. The f/o's I fly with will be widebody captains at the end of their career. Are you saying because you reached your "career expectation" sooner they should be locked out of theirs forever. On the whole I would bet the 97/98 hires I fly with are older than your conterparts. Your idea of fair seems to be "slide me into the widebody f/o seat at UAL" which is about 20ish years of service.

 

[catIIIc]

Where did I say that I want to slide into a widebody seat at UAL? I can already hold a widebody seat so I am not sliding into anything. So you are saying that because I have achieved these career expectations sooner that I should just accept reserve or worse when the SLI is done? Believe me I know that it could happen, arbitrators are a fickle bunch, will you accept the arbitrators decision if it does not go the way you hope? In the end everyone will feel that they got screwed and the other guy got away with murder, so where do we go from here? When we are done with our JCBA both of our Merger Committee will be at each others throats in front of an arbitrator and he will make a decision. I will accept his decision will you?

 

[waveflyer]

And that was my point earlier-
Similar dynamics are in place with this as at USAIR- UAL is the weaker carrier, and more stagnant from 9/11 up to the merger- but they have the proud history of being one of the oldest and best airlines in the world and it was the best job prior to bin Ladin - and most importantly, they are the larger carrier and can democratically throw many more roadblocks up than CAL could.

So it is a fair question- will UAL pilots accept an arbitrated decision ?? It really doesn't matter if CAL would or not, they don't have the numbers to stop anything- but UAL does.

This is now two times where the bigger carrier was weaker at the time of the merger. The first time hasn't been good for any of us- how about now?

 

[Flopgut]

Thanks Wave. You're just a real breath of fresh air.

 

[eaglesview]

Where did I say that I want to slide into a widebody seat at UAL? I can already hold a widebody seat so I am not sliding into anything. So you are saying that because I have achieved these career expectations sooner that I should just accept reserve or worse when the SLI is done? Believe me I know that it could happen, arbitrators are a fickle bunch, will you accept the arbitrators decision if it does not go the way you hope? In the end everyone will feel that they got screwed and the other guy got away with murder, so where do we go from here? When we are done with our JCBA both of our Merger Committee will be at each others throats in front of an arbitrator and he will make a decision. I will accept his decision will you?

It doesn't matter what I accept and don't. I am enough of a realist to know my single voice does not matter. Hopefully you are correct and in the end we will all be pissed off. that will mean mission accomplished.

ps. Are you saying the guys I fly with should accept not being able to hold the widebody at all because some guy just got lucky with the timing?

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

It doesn't matter what I accept and don't. I am enough of a realist to know my single voice does not matter. Hopefully you are correct and in the end we will all be pissed off. that will mean mission accomplished.

ps. Are you saying the guys I fly with should accept not being able to hold the widebody at all because some guy just got lucky with the timing?

Why would they not have their widebody seats? If a relative seniority is implemented of the active pilots, with considerations for seat, position and career expectations, why would they not get that chance? The DOH and LOS are only possible considerations as per ALPA policy, the most important is "fair and equitable" where nobody (who can currently hold it) loses their seat, position and pay.

As for timing, that is within each respective company. The luck is in who chose a stronger company. No punishments and no windfalls will be the key to this merger.

Do you really believe that the person at the bottom of either active list has different career expectations? They are both narrowbody, reserve FO's, jr based, No? and the top person at either list is the same, No?

 

[sleeves]

So it is a fair question- will UAL pilots accept an arbitrated decision ??

How will they stop it? US Air is holding up the contract. We are doing the contract first, to avoid the drama of US Air. I am sure it will be ugly, with all of us hating each other for years, but I do not see it being held up.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Or United could just furlough another 500 pilots on January 15, 2012. United pilots lose their furlough protection at the end of 2011. Also United is over staffed. If history shows us any thing. It is that Continental management likes as few pilots as possible.

So keep your advice, hold out till next year. Maybe the company can find 500 more pilots to use as hostages. It would help the CAL-ALPA merger committee. In the argument, that a 2007 hire CAL pilot should be senior to a UAL 1995 hire using the relative seniority model.

I talked to a former negotiator about this very topic and he said that he told the UAL side that they were crazy to sign this Transition Agreement because it only gave them protection till January 15 2012. 500 were out the door just before the merger and the United side is reducing their block hours. He firmly believes they'll furlough more on the United side with no protections for them. That'll suck............