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Acquisition or Merger?

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Given the way this deal was put together, its entirely possible that this scenario exists: 1. SWA operates AAI as a subsidiary.
2. SWA begins dumping 717s.
3. As the 717s go, AAI is forced to furlough pilots
4. AAI 737 positions on the Boeing line are transferred to SWA.
5. SWA changes those -700 options to -800s.
6. As those airplanes roll off the line, they are assigned to SWA.
7. AAI furloughees are brought back on the bottom of the SWA list.

The longer it takes to get an SLI agreement, the greater the chance that AAI pilots are furloughed.

Personally, I don't think SWA has any intention of operating the 717s one day longer than they have to.
 
Not going to happen, too much money to be made combining the companies. While I hope that I will get a seniority bump by this combination of companies I fully expect that I will be at the same relative position on the ISL when the dust settles. Monday 02MAY will be a great day for SWA/AAI. It is a crazy industry with crazy laws and my aviation career has not turned out like I wanted it to, but that is not the fault of the AAI pilots.
 
The 717's are leased, and there would be big penalties to getting rid of them. Given that they are being operated profitably now, why would you get rid of them and replace the revenue with losses from breaking the leases? Doesn't make any sense.

Those leases, btw, are not financed by Boeing, but by US and foreign banks.
 
madjack said:
Not going to happen, too much money to be made combining the companies. While I hope that I will get a seniority bump by this combination of companies I fully expect that I will be at the same relative position on the ISL when the dust settles. Monday 02MAY will be a great day for SWA/AAI. It is a crazy industry with crazy laws and my aviation career has not turned out like I wanted it to, but that is not the fault of the AAI pilots.
Click to expand...

Madjack-

Are you coming down with something? Not more than 20 minutes ago in another thread your were insinuating with Gup that you know some secret plan (like AirTran will be ____, well you know) that would move you up in senority enough that you will not be flying for any Citrus Caps and now you are on this thread saying you have come to peace with the reality that you might just one day have to throw gear for an ex. AirTran guy. What is your goal here?
 
Last edited:
madjack said:
Not going to happen, too much money to be made combining the companies. While I hope that I will get a seniority bump by this combination of companies I fully expect that I will be at the same relative position on the ISL when the dust settles. Monday 02MAY will be a great day for SWA/AAI. It is a crazy industry with crazy laws and my aviation career has not turned out like I wanted it to, but that is not the fault of the AAI pilots.
Click to expand...

Stop it, if in fact you're a SWA pilot. You sound like a Delta dude.
 
I am a SWA 10 year FO...don't take blue pills (viagra?), I did not come up with the M/B legislation, it exists...GK is a business man, and I suppose a visionary, I have a glimmer of hope that he will take care of the SWA pilots, but as a finance guy he will do what is best for the bottom line and that has nothing to do with my position on the seniority list. I hope to be OK with the ultimate ISL, but to imagine that there will not be such a list (probably arbitrated) is sticking your head in the sand...AAI/SWA will be one by the first quarter of 2012. To think that the SWA/AAi pilots can stop this is not reality. Do I think it is fair that an AAI CP with less years of service then me will be my boss, no way, but it will probably turn out that way...M/B is not designed to help the acquiring airline's pilot, it is designed to prevent a AA/TWA scenario (i.e. staple than furlough). It is Federal law. Monday 02MAY is a great day for every AAI pilot: they are on the road to working under a great CBA within a great company...for me JUL26 was just the beginning of another roadblock (like age 60, fuel prices, great recession etc...), not happy but what can I do...ok I can shut up and will.
 
Iluflying,

I believe Gup was implying I will be working for the junior AT CPs, I agreed, maybe I am pessimistic but I agreed.
 
Madjack-

I have to apologize. You do not need to shut up. You are more than welcome to say whatever you want on this board. I was just wondering what was up with the different reactions. I do have a question though?

Isn't GK helping you by providing you a stronger company that is growing? No matter where you fall on the list. I understand you being at SWA for 10 years and having a 8 yr Cap at AirTran move before you is hard to swallow but if the SLI goes relative you are no different than you were May 1.

Hope all works out for you.
 
madjack said:
Iluflying,

I believe Gup was implying I will be working for the junior AT CPs, I agreed, maybe I am pessimistic but I agreed.
Click to expand...

Oh then sorry for my assumption. I went back to try to find it to read again but can not so if your position is the same all along then you are right and i am wrong.

Good luck to you during the process.
 
Ty Webb said:
The 717's are leased, and there would be big penalties to getting rid of them.
Click to expand...

Leases can and have been renegotiated. AS had horrible leases on the MDs, but it didn't stop them from retiring them early.

What are the penalties, Ty? How much of that can be offset by the costs involved with operating a diverse fleet, especially if 50+ of the airplanes are essentially a derelict type with limited parts supplies?
 
madjack said:
I am a SWA 10 year FO...don't take blue pills (viagra?), I did not come up with the M/B legislation, it exists...GK is a business man, and I suppose a visionary, I have a glimmer of hope that he will take care of the SWA pilots, but as a finance guy he will do what is best for the bottom line and that has nothing to do with my position on the seniority list. I hope to be OK with the ultimate ISL, but to imagine that there will not be such a list (probably arbitrated) is sticking your head in the sand...AAI/SWA will be one by the first quarter of 2012. To think that the SWA/AAi pilots can stop this is not reality. Do I think it is fair that an AAI CP with less years of service then me will be my boss, no way, but it will probably turn out that way...M/B is not designed to help the acquiring airline's pilot, it is designed to prevent a AA/TWA scenario (i.e. staple than furlough). It is Federal law. Monday 02MAY is a great day for every AAI pilot: they are on the road to working under a great CBA within a great company...for me JUL26 was just the beginning of another roadblock (like age 60, fuel prices, great recession etc...), not happy but what can I do...ok I can shut up and will.
Click to expand...
You're not a SWAPA rep in MCO are you?
 
In this case, "seat protection" will be prevented by Bond McKaskill.

What's more, a negotiated solution is what is best for BOTH pilot groups. "Seat protection" will not be part of any negotiated solution.
 
Fubijaakr said:
Given the way this deal was put together, its entirely possible that this scenario exists: 1. SWA operates AAI as a subsidiary.
2. SWA begins dumping 717s.
3. As the 717s go, AAI is forced to furlough pilots
4. AAI 737 positions on the Boeing line are transferred to SWA.
5. SWA changes those -700 options to -800s.
6. As those airplanes roll off the line, they are assigned to SWA.
7. AAI furloughees are brought back on the bottom of the SWA list.

The longer it takes to get an SLI agreement, the greater the chance that AAI pilots are furloughed.

Personally, I don't think SWA has any intention of operating the 717s one day longer than they have to.
Click to expand...

That is just crazy. Scare tactics DON'T WORK. You will have SLI arbitration, and there will be Airtran pilots mixed in with SWA pilots on the list, which means there will also be Southwest guys at the bottom, especially anyone hired after the merger announcement. Get used to it.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Hose A. Jiminez said:
In this case, "seat protection" will be prevented by Bond McKaskill.

What's more, a negotiated solution is what is best for BOTH pilot groups. "Seat protection" will not be part of any negotiated solution.
Click to expand...


Fences can be placed by Arbitrators, around positions or bases. They can say Airtran brought in this many planes, so they have to keep this many Captain positions for 10 years, minimum. It's called rolling the dice!


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Fubijaakr said:
Leases can and have been renegotiated. AS had horrible leases on the MDs, but it didn't stop them from retiring them early.

What are the penalties, Ty? How much of that can be offset by the costs involved with operating a diverse fleet, especially if 50+ of the airplanes are essentially a derelict type with limited parts supplies?
Click to expand...


The reason SWA probably won't get rid of the 717s is because a certain other BIG legacy based in a similar base is very interested in them. They actually already hired someone from Airtran to set up a 717 program SHOULD THE OPPORTUNITY PRESENT ITSELF. I personally think SWA should dump the 717s. Yeah, that would be cool. That could help with a 100 seater problem.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
General Lee said:
The reason SWA probably won't get rid of the 717s is because a certain other BIG legacy based in a similar base is very interested in them. They actually already hired someone from Airtran to set up a 717 program SHOULD THE OPPORTUNITY PRESENT ITSELF. I personally think SWA should dump the 717s. Yeah, that would be cool. That could help with a 100 seater problem.


Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...

Dump the 717 leases? Absolutely not, as stated the lease returns would be costly, but..

Selling the planes with the leases intact would not be.

I'm not sure what Gary's vision is for the 717, but the options are wide open, just like the various angles to the SLI merger.
 
GL,

I don't see an ATL fence due to our point to point operations. The 717s could go to TX/CA for two steppin. Can/will an arbitrator seat protect without a geographical fence? Within the current CBA, SWA CPs are not seat protected and can be downgraded by company choice...CPs cannot be bumped out of a pilot base by a more senior pilot unless there is vacancy bid to that base...
 
General Lee said:
The reason SWA probably won't get rid of the 717s is because a certain other BIG legacy based in a similar base is very interested in them. They actually already hired someone from Airtran to set up a 717 program SHOULD THE OPPORTUNITY PRESENT ITSELF. I personally think SWA should dump the 717s. Yeah, that would be cool. That could help with a 100 seater problem.
Click to expand...
General if this does happen, and I wouldn't mind seeing it happen, I would think that you would be very happy to give relative seniority to the AirTran pilots that would be coming with those 717s. So since the General has spoken it will happen. DAL will get the 717s and SWA will get 30+ gates in ATL.
 
Shootr,

Don't get me wrong, like all pilots I am greedy and want to get as much out of this deal as I can, but it is up to the NC/Arb/GK not me....I am ready for an unfavorable outcome (relative seniority) if it happens, hopefully it will not and it will be some sort of DOH blend that acknowledges the size and CBA differences between the airlines and gives SWA pilots (especially those at the bottom of the list) a seniority bump. That seems fair to me. BUT IT IS NOT UP TO ME and I am ready for the "worst case" scenario. I may agree to a fence solution if the AAI pilots would operate under their CBA pay rates while operating within the fence...if they want to leave the fence they hold whatever seat their global seniority will allow them...that seems fair and the AAI pilots will assume some of the risk if the combined airline does not grow...I do not think relative seniority or seat protection is fair...but it is NOT UP TO ME.
 
You and SWAPA have more power than you think. Don't settle when it comes down to a vote or letting your reps know what you'll accept.
 
The 717's are leased, and there would be big penalties to getting rid of them.

You don’t think SWA has a way out of those leases if needed?
 

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