ASA/XJT contract obstacles (already)

[cybourg10]

Thanks to FL990 for this info from the ASA contract:

"If I could draw everyones attention to ASA's contract, SEC 1.E.2 which states "The respective pilot collective bargaining agreements will be merged into one(1) agreement as the result of negotiations among the pilot groups and the successor or Company. If a fully merged agreement is not reached within four (4) months from the date a final and binding integrated pilot seniority list is issued, the parties will jointly submit outstanding issues to binding interest arbitration;"

So if after 4 months of stalling by management our contract goes to an arbitrator and he/she gets to decide what is in our CBA without a pilot vote? If I am reading this correctly, this is a huge obstacle for our new group to get an industry leading contract because of this weak language. I see no reason for the new company to negotiate anything industry leading because they can count on the arbitrator giving us an average contract without our votes. This is a big deal.

 

[rjacobs]

Nah, NMB mediators very very rarely impose contracts on groups. I dont think its going to go that far. Also this is, at least as I read it, talking about the two pilot groups, not the combined groups desire's vs. management. I am sure both of our pilot groups will be able to come together and hammer out a JCBA fairly quickly. We both have excellent portions of our contract so hopefully they will keep all of those and get rid of the bad stuff.

 

[Medeco]

One of the BIG things that Brad Rich said with emphasis, was that they as a company do not get the true value and profits until the entire company is merged and complete. He was "very confident" that they could do this fast.

Now, the company is certainly going to put up a fight for things they believe will cost them money, if you think that we will just "get rid of all the bad stuff" keep dreaming or go volunteer yourself to negotiate the new deal.

The company does have a right to make money, just as we have a right to fight for what we believe is fair in compensation and work rules.

Its kinda like marriage, give and take on both sides, or fail.

 

[rjacobs]

Well my main point I think was that this section of the ?ASA? contract I believe is talking about things between the two pilot groups and not talking about the pilot groups vs. management. We(XJT and ASA) could knock out what we want pretty quickly and then go to management with the proposal. I dont think the 4 month time line is between us and management its between XJT and ASA. So mgmt could stall indefinitely and all we have is the normal NMB mediation process. If we(the pilot groups) cant come together in 4 months after SLI than it can go to binding arbitration. Now maybe I am wrong and the intent of this section is between the combined pilot groups and management. Anybody know how this section was intended to be interpreted?

 

[sweptback]

It's 9 months in the XJT contract. This is boilerplate ALPA merger language. Your point?

 

[johnpeace]

One of the BIG things that Brad Rich said with emphasis, was that they as a company do not get the true value and profits until the entire company is merged and complete. He was "very confident" that they could do this fast....

Its kinda like marriage, give and take on both sides, or fail.

He also talked about the value of the frontline employees at both companies and how important they (and their morale) are to ensuring the success of the merger.

Screwing us and creating a pilot labor group of 4200 PISSED OFF pilots is not the pathway to the savings/profits they're after and they KNOW it.

Give the company a little credit, they know how to run an airline.

 

[JumpersAway]

I absolutely hate to point this out, but I would like to make it a point. Brad Holt is at the helm of the company and ultimately is responsible for trying to do this whole "Super Regional Carrier" thing. I doubt highly that he wants to be the first to try it, and the first to fail. Have faith we can work this out, and that we can work togeather to make money................Once complete, I think we are going to be a financial power house.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I absolutely hate to point this out, but I would like to make it a point. Brad Holt is at the helm of the company and ultimately is responsible for trying to do this whole "Super Regional Carrier" thing. I doubt highly that he wants to be the first to try it, and the first to fail. Have faith we can work this out, and that we can work togeather to make money................Once complete, I think we are going to be a financial power house.

I agree and think most of us agree....

 

[buscap]

I'd like to buy the world a coke and keep it company...

By the way, do you guys serve coke or pepsi?

 

[goahead]

Nasty coke products

 

[buscap]

Nasty coke products

Well now that that's in the pro-merger column; what can we do about swapping out those ram-testicles, horns...whatever....for some real flight controls?

 

[Cardinal]

Well now that that's in the pro-merger column; what can we do about swapping out those ram-testicles, horns...whatever....for some real flight controls?

The ramshorns are like sushi - sounds like a bad idea till you try it.

 

[Tarzan]

Well now that that's in the pro-merger column; what can we do about swapping out those ram-testicles, horns...whatever....for some real flight controls?

Once you get used to them, you'll want nothing else. Plus, the FA has control over the temps in back and there is an actually PTT that is in a useful place and not on the darn yoke. It drives me nuts when you get a guy who is ham fisted on the yoke PTT when you are hand flying.

 

[Booker]

The ramshorns are like sushi - sounds like a bad idea till you try it.

Ha. Awesome thread creep. Five years in, and I still think they're stupid. But I do like sushi.

 

[Nevets]

Thanks to FL990 for this info from the ASA contract:

"If I could draw everyones attention to ASA's contract, SEC 1.E.2 which states "The respective pilot collective bargaining agreements will be merged into one(1) agreement as the result of negotiations among the pilot groups and the successor or Company. If a fully merged agreement is not reached within four (4) months from the date a final and binding integrated pilot seniority list is issued, the parties will jointly submit outstanding issues to binding interest arbitration;"

So if after 4 months of stalling by management our contract goes to an arbitrator and he/she gets to decide what is in our CBA without a pilot vote? If I am reading this correctly, this is a huge obstacle for our new group to get an industry leading contract because of this weak language. I see no reason for the new company to negotiate anything industry leading because they can count on the arbitrator giving us an average contract without our votes. This is a big deal.

Our contract calls for 9 months. But the kicker here is that these contracts were negotiated before the new ALPA merger policy. The old policy had SLI before JCBA. ALPA changed that to prevent one pilot group from holding the JCBA hostage because they didn't like the outcome of the SLI (AWA/USAir). The new policy requires a ratified JCBA before SLI negotiations. The point is that our contracts both require us to use ALPA merger policy and because of that new policy we will never reach 4 or 9 months after binding SLI because JCBA has to be ratified first.

Nah, NMB mediators very very rarely impose contracts on groups. I dont think its going to go that far. Also this is, at least as I read it, talking about the two pilot groups, not the combined groups desire's vs. management. I am sure both of our pilot groups will be able to come together and hammer out a JCBA fairly quickly. We both have excellent portions of our contract so hopefully they will keep all of those and get rid of the bad stuff.

Now that I've made the language irrelevant in my mind, this wouldn't go to an NMB mediator. It would go to an arbitrator. Arbitrators in these situations are not affiliated with the NMB. And it is talking about the pilot groups negotiating with management.

 

[Tarzan]

Our contract calls for 9 months. But the kicker here is that these contracts were negotiated before the new ALPA merger policy. The old policy had SLI before JCBA. ALPA changed that to prevent one pilot group from holding the JCBA hostage because they didn't like the outcome of the SLI (AWA/USAir). The new policy requires a ratified JCBA before SLI negotiations. The point is that our contracts both require us to use ALPA merger policy and because of that new policy we will never reach 4 or 9 months after binding SLI because JCBA has to be ratified first.

The facts behind the merger policy are correct but the contractual issues are still there. They both say list before JCBA. Sec 45 is guidance only and not binding like a contract.

But the trump card we all have is the merger of DAL and NW. That is a heck of a good asset especially when the MEC is right upstairs from another to get further guidance from.

 

[Nevets]

The facts behind the merger policy are correct but the contractual issues are still there. They both say list before JCBA. Sec 45 is guidance only and not binding like a contract.

But the trump card we all have is the merger of DAL and NW. That is a heck of a good asset especially when the MEC is right upstairs from another to get further guidance from.

The binding part is in section one of both contracts that state SLI will be done in accordance with ALPA merger policy. Apparently this is the way our MEC views it.

XJT has an office next door to CAL so they are getting guidance from there as well.

 

[CFI2766]

The binding part is in section one of both contracts that state SLI will be done in accordance with ALPA merger policy. Apparently this is the way our MEC views it.

XJT has an office next door to CAL so they are getting guidance from there as well.

Soooo... what do the XJT guys think has to come first, the list or the JCBA?

 

[Nevets]

Soooo... what do the XJT guys think has to come first, the list or the JCBA?

ALPA merger policy, which is incorporated into BOTH pilots' contracts is clear in requiring JCBA before SLI is even considered. This was the lesson learned from AWA/USAir vs DAL/NWA. ALPA does not want another scenerio where a pilot group holds JCBA hostage because they didn't like the outcome of the SLI.

Let me put it this way. There is a definite period when 9 or 4 months occurs after SLI. But by that time, the JCBA would have been long ago ratified through the normal bargaining process anyways.

 

[mckpickle]

Ok, lets play devils advocate. When XJT and ASA signed their contracts with their respective managements the merger policy WAS integration THEN a contract....but then alpa changes the policy...to which neither companies management teams signed off on. So the unions change the policy without managements approval and expect management to adhear? I agree this is the way is should go, but dones't it seem like some high priced legal guys could shoot holes right in it? Thoughts?