No pressure fatigue calls?

[sayrejm]

I began to notice fatigue once half way back on the last flight of a looong day on our last of a 4 day. Enroute we were talking about how tired we were starting to feel and how long a day it had been. I was PF... night visual into atlanta... took over the radios after taxiing off and realized we were still on approach... neither of us caught it. Fatigue was definitely one of the factors. Lucky it was only a small problem. I am sure many of you have experienced far worse. But in this case we didn't even key in on it until mid flight.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree that the company wants to avoid something as devastating to the bank account as a crash. At the same time, the company wants the flight completed. We've all been in a situation where we were just fatigued enough to successfully complete a flight and at the same time narrowly avoid a major violation.

The company has no right to tell me when to put my career on the line. And the fact that they care about fatigue, as we do, is merely coincidental.

It's all about $$$ for them. You have to watch out for #1.

So which is it Lazylighnin....? Do they want a dangerous situation regarding fatigue or don't they? Me thinks you are trying to milk this like your screen name...."LAZY"..... An accident is good for me or the company....I don't fly when I am fatigued and the company doesn't want me to either....Some of you whiny girls don't understand what true "fatique" is. I and others are getting tired of your constant whining.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I began to notice fatigue once half way back on the last flight of a looong day on our last of a 4 day. Enroute we were talking about how tired we were starting to feel and how long a day it had been. I was PF... night visual into atlanta... took over the radios after taxiing off and realized we were still on approach... neither of us caught it. Fatigue was definitely one of the factors. Lucky it was only a small problem. I am sure many of you have experienced far worse. But in this case we didn't even key in on it until mid flight.

You better just bypass the recall then....wouldn't want you to miss out on your rest.....

 

[LazyLightnin']

So which is it Lazylighnin....? Do they want a dangerous situation regarding fatigue or don't they? Me thinks you are trying to milk this like your screen name...."LAZY"..... An accident is good for me or the company....I don't fly when I am fatigued and the company doesn't want me to either....Some of you whiny girls don't understand what true "fatique" is. I and others are getting tired of your constant whining.....

What are you Jar Jar Binks? What's up with this "me thinks" jargon?

Personally have never thrown the "fatigue" flag to get out of a flight, JoeMerchant, but how is intimidating pilots (which the CP's and this form do) to operate flights after they have admitted to being fatigued not a safety issue? For whatever reason they may be fatigued.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What are you Jar Jar Binks? What's up with this "me thinks" jargon?

Personally have never thrown the "fatigue" flag to get out of a flight, JoeMerchant, but how is intimidating pilots (which the CP's and this form do) to operate flights after they have admitted to being fatigued not a safety issue? For whatever reason they may be fatigued.

So no harm if you decide to stay out late and have a few instead of getting some rest? So no harm if you decide to commute in on an early flight instead of coming the night before to get rest? So no harm if you choose to stay in the crew lounge instead of getting a hotel or a crash pad?

I have used fatigue before, and have never had a problem....If it is legit, it will be OK...If it isn't, then you should be concerned.....

Some of you should go find a nice 9 to 5 job since you seem to not want to deal with what happens in this job....

 

[BOX OFFICE]

JB sure is a whole lot tougher behind a computer screen than he is in person, lol... another internet tough guy. He'd never speak to someone like that in the crew lounge and everyone knows it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

JB sure is a whole lot tougher behind a computer screen than he is in person, lol... another internet tough guy. He'd never speak to someone like that in the crew lounge and everyone knows it.

I'm not hiding behind a screen name....Everyone knows who I am...I say the same thing in person as I do here. Come on WF, you know better....

 

[BOX OFFICE]

I'm not hiding behind a screen name....Everyone knows who I am...I say the same thing in person as I do here. Come on WF, you know better....

Please, John. WF? Really? You know who I am, because we had this conversation, so what's up with dragging WF into it? You're so pathetic. Everyone at ASA hates you... maybe you should quit. I'm sorry you screwed up your life so much that you didn't even bother applying at Delta. Some of us moved on. Don't be hatin'.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Please, John. WF? Really? You know who I am, because we had this conversation, so what's up with dragging WF into it? You're so pathetic. Everyone at ASA hates you... maybe you should quit. I'm sorry you screwed up your life so much that you didn't even bother applying at Delta. Some of us moved on. Don't be hatin'.

OK WF....why would I quit...I'm happy here. It's some of you that don't sound too happy and should probably quit. I'm not moving on....just wish some who aren't happy would....

 

[LazyLightnin']

So no harm if you decide to stay out late and have a few instead of getting some rest? So no harm if you decide to commute in on an early flight instead of coming the night before to get rest? So no harm if you choose to stay in the crew lounge instead of getting a hotel or a crash pad?

I have used fatigue before, and have never had a problem....If it is legit, it will be OK...If it isn't, then you should be concerned.....

Some of you should go find a nice 9 to 5 job since you seem to not want to deal with what happens in this job....

If the reasons you listed are really the reasons for the onslaught of fatigue calls recently, then no. It's not all right. But we all know that the word "fatigue" has only just now surfaced because the company decided to push the limits of the pilot group.

So no, I don't have sympathy for ASA and it's management. They are acting as if their actions haven't directly had an impact on these fatigue calls.

Sure a few bad apples will slip threw the cracks and every once in a while try to milk the system by screaming "fatigued", but slipping through the cracks is the same way people like Linda W got hired. It's gonna happen, but it's seldom. Get over it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If the reasons you listed are really the reasons for the onslaught of fatigue calls recently, then no. It's not all right. But we all know that the word "fatigue" has only just now surfaced because the company decided to push the limits of the pilot group.

So no, I don't have sympathy for ASA and it's management. They are acting as if their actions haven't directly had an impact on these fatigue calls.

So you are saying the company doesn't care if it causes a pilot fatigued accident.....That goes against what you said earlier....Which is it?

If you are fatigued, you will be OK. Act professionally, and you will be OK. ASA management is better than it was in the past, and it is better than the other regional managements. I guess you would rather have Mesa, CHQ, Trans States, or Eagle management....

 

[LazyLightnin']

So you are saying the company doesn't care if it causes a pilot fatigued accident.....That goes against what you said earlier....Which is it?

If you are fatigued, you will be OK. Act professionally, and you will be OK. ASA management is better than it was in the past, and it is better than the other regional managements. I guess you would rather have Mesa, CHQ, Trans States, or Eagle management....

If they cared more about preventing the fatigue calls than policing them, they would staff us accordingly. This issue was not even a topic 8 months ago when pilots weren't getting extended and repeatedly overworked.

Of course, with your seniority, you're in left field as far as these issues are concerned. Although, seeing as you probably are toting an AARP card, left field is probably your general state of mind.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If they cared more about preventing the fatigue calls than policing them, they would staff us accordingly. This issue was not even a topic 8 months ago when pilots weren't getting extended and repeatedly overworked.

Of course, with your seniority, you're in left field as far as these issues are concerned. Although, seeing as you probably are toting an AARP card, left field is probably your general state of mind.

So you are saying they don't mind an accident....Got it....You are an idiot.....If you don't like reserve, then you better hope we grow.....If you want us to grow, then you better quit crying like a baby....Your choice.....

 

[LazyLightnin']

So you are saying they don't mind an accident....Got it....You are an idiot.....If you don't like reserve, then you better hope we grow.....If you want us to grow, then you better quit crying like a baby....Your choice.....

Right...

 

[buscap]

You guys are embarrassing yourselves.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Ahh, come on!! If you buy that..

I can look at a pairing and tell you in 5 seconds if it's fatiguing or not. So ASA is suddenly trying to convene panels and conduct "studies" on things that have been known for YEARS. It's a farce. They know if (when) they put one in the dirt they can fall back on this and say-

Hey, we tried but stimed by those bad boy pilots who wouldn't fill out the survey

I've got a suggestion- hire someone with an IQ over 100 who can put together a trip to save their life.

The study/evaluation is about determining the best decision point. The safest flight is one that doesn't ever leave the gate. The best rested trips are those with one leg to the overnight, and one leg back the next day. Clearly those aren't going to work though.

The company has to determine where to draw the line, and what kind of trips to build. What is an acceptable circadian swap? 1100 duty in to 0400? 1500 to 0500?

There has to be some give and take because the commuters want to swap from late duty in on the first day to early on the last. That kind of swap is exactly what the guy who lives in ATL hates. There just isn't any way to make everyone happy, so they are studying the issue to find the best way to build the trips to be safe, and to keep most people in the happy zone.

 

[buscap]

Well, the company can't have their cake and eat it too, either.

One hand brings pilots into the CPO for a heavy "discussion" with pay issues, while the other hand wants forms filled out strictly for nice-nice.

 

[CFI2766]

The questions aren't to give you a hard time. The company is doing research to see how to mitigate the fatigue issues. They are even convening groups of reserve pilots to discuss the issue, and looking into software to evaluate trips to reduce circadian rhythm swaps.

Just because someone asks you about your fatigue, that doesn't mean you are being pressured, or disciplined. The safety department wants the form filled out to help with determining the risk to the operation.

Believe me folks, if the safety department feels that there is a substantial risk, things will get changed. The only way to determine the risk is to compile data. Be honest, and report what you're seeing out there, reserve guys. It will be a good tool for you to speak directly to the management about the issue.

We are a commercial enterprise. Of course the viewpoints on this issue will be different between the CSSC department and the Flight Ops department. (Frankly, in a capitalistic society populated by moral people, this is how it should be.)

Let's be honest here: The head of the CSSC department doesn't want to be the head of the CSSC department forever. Is it reasonable to suspect that decisions made in the capacity of the head of safety might be viewed from the prism of how it might affect future career progression in the company? Most reasonable people would say so.

By the same token, an occupant of the CPO either wants to maintain his presence there, or, alternatively, enhance his attractiveness for other positions of increasing authority, and therefore, increasing compensation, within the company.

In general, this does not make the CPO occupant nor the CSSC folks bad people. However, it certainly does give the perception that decisions made regarding safety and fatigue are not made solely for the purpose of addressing safety and fatigue.

A crew lounge filled with 10 different pilots and 10 different GO dwellers will have 20 different opinions on how to address fatigue in aircraft operations.

 

[CFI2766]

The study/evaluation is about determining the best decision point. The safest flight is one that doesn't ever leave the gate. The best rested trips are those with one leg to the overnight, and one leg back the next day. Clearly those aren't going to work though.

The company has to determine where to draw the line, and what kind of trips to build. What is an acceptable circadian swap? 1100 duty in to 0400? 1500 to 0500?

There has to be some give and take because the commuters want to swap from late duty in on the first day to early on the last. That kind of swap is exactly what the guy who lives in ATL hates. There just isn't any way to make everyone happy, so they are studying the issue to find the best way to build the trips to be safe, and to keep most people in the happy zone.

I nearly wholly agree with this. Well articulated. My only change would be with regards to who gets to 'draw the line' between an acceptable and an overly fatiguing trip.

If it were solely the company's discretion as to how to build the pairing, minimum rest with maximum productivity from a financial standpoint would determine the construction of the pairing. If it were an individual pilot's discretion as to trip construction, it would be maximum pay with minimum block. (The third variable in the equation would be the work rules peer groups in the industry operate under.)

To address pilot absenteeism, as well as pilot morale, I think that most pilots of an airline would prefer to have a voice in trip construction.

Ideally, there will be some significant changes to FTDT rules in our near future. Though it could be perceived by the RAA as inconvenient in the near term, having a level playing field that respects fatigue issues is in everyone's best interests.

 

[CFI2766]

Well, the company can't have their cake and eat it too, either.

One hand brings pilots into the CPO for a heavy "discussion" with pay issues, while the other hand wants forms filled out strictly for nice-nice.

Win. Filled with win.

 

[sayrejm]

I found the cure for pilot fatigue! But wait, there's more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mvwp0BddB8

 

[Freebrd]

The safest flight is one that doesn't ever leave the gate.

Hmm not entirely true. TLH? But I know what you meant.

 

[buscap]

An artist named EVERLAST has a cool song called What It's Like. I's basically about walking in other people's shoes.

In a perfect world of honest folks, there would be no CPO involvement in this. Just the Safety folks trying to make adjustments to schedules and policies.

But this is one big fat complicated issue with a really long list of factors, some under the pilot's control, some not.

All it takes is one liar clearly playing the fatigue card, to turn a sympathetic Chief Pilot into a bad cop for the rest of his career.

My personal opinion is the contractual and FAA limitations are completely reasonable from a fatigue standpoint, if the pilot ensures their rest time is actually rest. Throw in screaming babies, commuting, drunk neighbors, whatever and that all changes.

Chronic stress is another story. The "I'm sick of this crap!" kind of stress. Every day, month after month, on reserve, with scheduling owning your nutsack, yanking you around, not abiding by the contract.

That kind of stress can bring a pilot to the breaking point. Next you look for an escape or maybe just a middle finger to the company and play the fatigue card.

Are you fatigued? Maybe not the "not enough sleep" kind, but you are no less fatigued.

The nature of our jobs can produce quite a bit of frustration and chronic stress which can result in fatigue of extremely varying degrees depending on several personal factors ranging from experience, life situation, health, genetics, background, etc etc. Our job does not allow the 'band-of-brothers" teamwork effect to mitigate any of these factors. We are each very much on our own in all this on a day to day basis.

Finally, I would hazard a guess that most valid fatigue calls are not the result of a lack of sleep. More so the variety of Peter Finch yelling "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take this anymore!"

Mad about what? contract violations, being stuck on reserve, commuting not by choice, getting denied the jumpseat, no chance of upgrade, being downgraded, scheduling yanking you around like Pinochio, repositioning airplanes, endless four day trips, etc. etc.

And yes, it could suck more, (you could be on furlough or fighting towel heads) but everyone has a different breaking point and will cry uncle in a different manner, at a different time. Just don't inappropriately play the fatigue card, just because you're sick of all the crap. (Man up or put on your big girl panties on that one.)

Doing so makes it harder on those who have to make a fatigue call, when they actually are just plain tired.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I nearly wholly agree with this. Well articulated. My only change would be with regards to who gets to 'draw the line' between an acceptable and an overly fatiguing trip.

If it were solely the company's discretion as to how to build the pairing, minimum rest with maximum productivity from a financial standpoint would determine the construction of the pairing. If it were an individual pilot's discretion as to trip construction, it would be maximum pay with minimum block. (The third variable in the equation would be the work rules peer groups in the industry operate under.)

To address pilot absenteeism, as well as pilot morale, I think that most pilots of an airline would prefer to have a voice in trip construction.

Ideally, there will be some significant changes to FTDT rules in our near future. Though it could be perceived by the RAA as inconvenient in the near term, having a level playing field that respects fatigue issues is in everyone's best interests.

I disagree to some extent, only because if the company is to maximize productivity, they must build trips that keep people motivated to be productive. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I do NOT think the company is out to get us. I think the safety department is honestly trying to determine the safety threat, and give good guidance to flightops. The company realizes that min rest and max productivity = low morale, so it is not in their interests to do so. The squeeze we are feeling now, well, we can talk about that in a private message, or in person. There has been a definite breakdown, and there should be consequences for the person responsible for it.

The company already determines the efficiency of the trips/lines. That won't change with this evaluation. It can only get better with better information.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

An artist named EVERLAST has a cool song called What It's Like. I's basically about walking in other people's shoes.

In a perfect world of honest folks, there would be no CPO involvement in this. Just the Safety folks trying to make adjustments to schedules and policies.

The ONLY reason that the CPO is involved is the pay issue. Well. That combined with the fact that the Safety dept isn't staffed to accept calls from 1600 pilots about fatigue, and make determinations.

The CPO is more than just a discipline outlet. They are our tie to management, and the way we communicate our concerns up to them. That's why that job sucks so much! They are just the conduit for all the crap, both up and down... Of course, some of them are more...diplomatic than others. Joe Anduze comes to mind.

 

[Redan]

If company really cared about fatigue they would build the majority of our flying into equitable lines instead of flagrantly, abusively, manipulatively and illegally withholding it and placing into opentime to be dolled out to reserves. And unfortunately it seems with endorsement from our union.

The vast majority of fatigue calls are reserves. Our reserve pilots are walking zombies. With our "opportunistic flying" how do we end up with something like 10 less lines in July than June? With around 25% or our pilot group on reserve? So much for the argument that with additional flying come more lines. The current trend will see far more than 25% on reserve soon.

If it wasn't so sad it would almost be amusing to hear senior captains on here using the tired, exhausted, worn out cliche of "if it's so bad then quit and we won't have to hear your complaining anymore?" Horse dung. As you well know and have frequently vocalized, the seniority system we're under prohibits such actions in most cases. Secondly, even the most junior pilot on property now has a hale of a commitment to this company and consequently every right to speak out regarding the forces attempting to turn our outfit into a pile of crap. If you really want word about our operation from someone with with a finger on the pulse, ask a reserve pilot not a senior captain.

 

[buscap]

The ONLY reason that the CPO is involved is the pay issue. Well. That combined with the fact that the Safety dept isn't staffed to accept calls from 1600 pilots about fatigue, and make determinations.

The CPO is more than just a discipline outlet. They are our tie to management, and the way we communicate our concerns up to them. That's why that job sucks so much! They are just the conduit for all the crap, both up and down... Of course, some of them are more...diplomatic than others. Joe Anduze comes to mind.

Well unfortunately any interaction with the CPO is usually viewed as a disciplinary action. This is a misconception reinforced by the style which most Chiefs adopt, whether they mean to or not. Like I said, it only takes interaction with one one peeved pilot inappropriately playing the fatigue card to turn a Chief into a monster. Cost of doing business I guess.

Then again, this being a first real job for many of our pilots, they are not well equipped to deal with that across the desk interaction, having no knowledge of what it means to have your "ducks in row".

Trust me, we have no Chief who is near the diks I've dealt with in my career. But that is no excuse. The protocol needs to be a little less confrontational. The best step toward that is to take the pay issue out of it. If a guy is at his base and working, but makes a fatigue call, his pay should not be touched.

That will make having to explain oneself the only sticky part, which we all should be up to.

 

[sunlitpath]

If company really cared about fatigue they would build the majority of our flying into equitable lines instead of flagrantly, abusively, manipulatively and illegally withholding it and placing into opentime to be dolled out to reserves. And unfortunately it seems with endorsement from our union.

The vast majority of fatigue calls are reserves. Our reserve pilots are walking zombies. With our "opportunistic flying" how do we end up with something like 10 less lines in July than June? With around 25% or our pilot group on reserve? So much for the argument that with additional flying come more lines. The current trend will see far more than 25% on reserve soon.

If it wasn't so sad it would almost be amusing to hear senior captains on here using the tired, exhausted, worn out cliche of "if it's so bad then quit and we won't have to hear your complaining anymore?" Horse dung. As you well know and have frequently vocalized, the seniority system we're under prohibits such actions in most cases. Secondly, even the most junior pilot on property now has a hale of a commitment to this company and consequently every right to speak out regarding the forces attempting to turn our outfit into a pile of crap. If you really want word about our operation from someone with with a finger on the pulse, ask a reserve pilot not a senior captain.

How true. The reserve group is now worn out. The company ignores this fact because the contract permits our ridiculous work rules regarding reserves. That's Ok. Let's do what we need to do to protect our own personal health, our family life, and our pilot certificate. If we self regulate our schedules, then we will see more upgrades soon. Hell, we gave them over two years to fix the system. Time is now up. I hope they junior man the living hell out of senior line holders for the next two months.

 

[FishandFly]

How true. The reserve group is now worn out. The company ignores this fact because the contract permits our ridiculous work rules regarding reserves. That's Ok. Let's do what we need to do to protect our own personal health, our family life, and our pilot certificate. If we self regulate our schedules, then we will see more upgrades soon. Hell, we gave them over two years to fix the system. Time is now up. I hope they junior man the living hell out of senior line holders for the next two months.

Well said.

 

[777forever]

I'm on reserve in IAD and not worn at all from the actual flying assignments. Worn out from commuting, but not reserve. I'll gladly take the 90+hrs of credit the ATL 200 reserve guys are getting. Anybody want to switch?