Rejected Takeoffs CRJ900

[mesaba13]

Listened to an informative recurrent ground school discussion concerning rejected takeoffs. Long and short was that generally speaking, there is no need to abort for amber cautions (even low speed). What are other pilots thoughts on this subject?

 

[Blade Runner]

Listened to an informative recurrent ground school discussion concerning rejected takeoffs. Long and short was that generally speaking, there is no need to abort for amber cautions (even low speed). What are other pilots thoughts on this subject?

"If your talking about 80 knots to V1, I brief only engine failure, Fire or control malfunction" anything below 80 knots use your best judgement, which takes into account runway length, braking action etc. If the "ICE" caution comes on are you going to abort? especially in vmc conditions?

 

[WWEfan]

Might want to abort for REV UNLOCKED msg. Especially at low speed. I'm pretty sure thats amber.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Smoke.

 

[satpak77]

not a CRJ thing but Flightsafety teaches "abort on any light" before V1 in the King Air

thats fine in sim-land but I am not blowing tires or smoking brakes, etc on a yellow/oran "BATT CHARGE LIGHT"

I brief red-light/emergency items only for abort. Anything else can be brought around the patch and dealt with

 

[Flyin Tony]

To much paper work when you abort!
Before everyone goes nuts, its a joke!

 

[NCherches]

I have heard both theories... abort for any light and abort only for "Engine Failure, Fire or loss of Directional Control''

I have had many yellow lights on takeoff roll where I was able to read the light, react according (decide to continue) and safetly solve the issue in the air-and I fly single pilot in a Citation.

I think it all depends on the crew's confidence or also the companies SOP's...

 

[Flyer1015]

Look in history and see how many accidents have happened with crews rejecting for something that could have easily been taken care of in the air, QRH/checklists, flown a traffic pattern, and landed back safely.

 

[flyf15]

Really, the runways CRJ operators use are so long that it is bad technique to not abort for anything... if something is broken, don't fly.

 

[CA1900]

Really, the runways CRJ operators use are so long that it is bad technique to not abort for anything... if something is broken, don't fly.

I'm sure the PSA crew that dragged it through the EMAS in KCRW would disagree with your technique.

 

[mesaba13]

I was talking about below 80 knots and the guidance was don't abort for any ambers. One amber I would probably not abort for is L or R THROTTLE because that engine power is not going to reduce when you pull the power levers back. Now you have assymetrical thrust with an engine stuck at takeoff power and one you pulled to idle. (Better to takeoff and handle that one in the air) PROX SYS is one that I would think a pilot would want to abort for becasue now you are manually extending the gear and you will have no indication of down.

Just wondering what other guys thought about this topic

 

[mesaba13]

Also, I can't recall many accidents that have occurred over a low speed abort (below 80 knots)

 

[Never2low]

It has been a several years since I have flown a CRJ but in the 700/900 series I seem to recall the DCU inhibiting caution messages during the takeoff and landing phase of flight. I believe there were 3 conditions: below 100 kts, above 100 knots and below 400' AGL +30 seconds for each condition certain EICAS messages were inhibited leaving only the messages the engineers thought important to the safety of the flight. There is a good chance you won't see the malfunction until you're airborne anyway. What those messages are I don't recall.

 

[Erlanger]

Really, the runways CRJ operators use are so long that it is bad technique to not abort for anything... if something is broken, don't fly.

Your logic is flawed. Either way I guess you haven't flown in and out of BUR, SNA and JAC.

 

[BoilerUP]

Fly as you brief, brief as you train, train as The Man dictates.

Prior to 80kts, I'm stopping for any abnormality. From 80kts to V1, only for an engine fire, failure, red warning item or loss of directional control. After V1, we'll take the airplane flying and figure it out then.

I often hear the classroom scenario of "Well, what if you get a brake caution at 70kts, will you abort then?"

Yes, I will.

I'm not going to take the time to see/hear the caution, look at the annunicator/message, process its severity and THEN decide to stop or go - even a proficient pilot has just wasted 5-10kts and now you're fully in the high-speed regime where stopping for what WAS a low-speed caution message ain't going to be in anybody's best interest.

YMMV, caveat emptor, etc...

I'm sure the PSA crew that dragged it through the EMAS in KCRW would disagree with your technique.

A textbook example of why you don't go changing flap settings in the middle of your takeoff roll!

 

[crj567]

So, you wouldn't abort for a ANTISKID FAIL at 5 kts?

-What about a MACH TRIM at 20 knots,
-How about a Lav Smoke at 82 Knots?

-Not all yellows are minor-not all reds are a huge deal.

-There really are no hard-and-fast rules, obviously-you shouldn't continue takeoff if you discover you have a possible Lav or Cargo fire at 60knots.

-I think some mgmt types are really setting you all up by coming up with a rule like this!

 

[n757st]

As someone else said, reverser unlock is a caution. I don't know anyone AFTER 80 knots that will not abort for that, let alone before.

 

[fischman]

Fly as you brief, brief as you train, train as The Man dictates.

Prior to 80kts, I'm stopping for any abnormality. From 80kts to V1, only for an engine fire, failure, red warning item or loss of directional control. After V1, we'll take the airplane flying and figure it out then.

I often hear the classroom scenario of "Well, what if you get a brake caution at 70kts, will you abort then?"

Yes, I will.

I'm not going to take the time to see/hear the caution, look at the annunicator/message, process its severity and THEN decide to stop or go - even a proficient pilot has just wasted 5-10kts and now you're fully in the high-speed regime where stopping for what WAS a low-speed caution message ain't going to be in anybody's best interest.

YMMV, caveat emptor, etc...

+1. Hard to Monday-morning quarterback a guy when he follows SOP.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

+1. Hard to Monday-morning quarterback a guy when he follows SOP.

Actually it's quite simple, you just have to be in management. It's happened numerous times. the "it was nothing, why didn't you bring it back to the hub for repairs?" after the fact happens much more than it should. Followed by the FAA response of " Why didn't you land at nearest suitable?" Just after having been asked by management why you didn't land at a maintenance base..... Safety, Sensability, Smarts, All are spelled starting with a $ in this industry.

 

[MoreDaysOff]

How about BRAKE OVHT Warning Message at a high speed (well in excess of 80 KIAS) with ice contaminant on the runway. Let's make the runway short too.

 

[mesaba13]

Continue

 

[CFI2766]

What's this? A genuine technical question on FI? It's like it's 10 years ago...


The book I read during my ground training said first and foremost that it is the PIC's decision. As a guideline, though, we abort for just about anything below 80 kts. Above 80 kts, abort only for engine fire or failure, loss of directional control, or the perception that the A/C is unsafe to fly. Again, I stress that the abort is the PIC's decision, not necessarily the PF's decision.

It is my personal technique to verbalize this at least once a pairing, regardless of whether or not I've flown with a guy before or not. Typically, I get blank looks and stuttering attempts to remember the criteria for a high speed abort at least once a month. Occasionally, this brings about a conversation that highlights things that I've either forgotten or not thought of; this is fine with me.

It's irritating for me to see memos from my company that suggest that crews are accomplishing too many high speed aborts. That being said, I see their point. The number of high speed aborts are up, while the necessity of these aborts, in hindsight, is often questionable.

 

[MoreDaysOff]

"It's irritating for me to see memos from my company that suggest that crews are accomplishing too many high speed aborts. That being said, I see their point. The number of high speed aborts are up, while the necessity of these aborts, in hindsight, is often questionable. "

Remember, the vast minority of total abort is in the high speed regime, about 120 KIAS or more. An yet, the vast majority of abort incidents or accidents come from these aborts. Be careful out there.

 

[mesaba13]

High speed aborts can have very grave consequences and should only be considered for Fire, failure, control problems, or inadverdent TR deploys. Its seems that some think there are too many low speed aborts happening.

 

[GuppyWN]

I'd rather abort at low speed and discover I over-reacted than NOT abort and wish I had.

Gup

 

[BoilerUP]

Remember, the vast minority of total abort is in the high speed regime, about 120 KIAS or more. An yet, the vast majority of abort incidents or accidents come from these aborts. Be careful out there.

Technically speaking, anything above 80kts (or whatever speed a particular operator uses) is in the high speed regime.

As for the BRAKE OVHT message...does it result in a red flashing MASTER WARNING with triple-chime? If so, and your brief including stopping for any red warning item above 80kts, then yes, you should reject the takeoff. If you briefed an abort above 80kts only for an engine fire/failure, loss of directional control or TR deployment, then continue because a master warning isn't one of your briefed abort criteria.

Again, I don't see the difficulty in flying as you brief...but what I don't understand is the logic of taking the time to look at a caution/warning, analyze it and its impact on the operation, decide a course of action and then execute that action (stop or go). Even a proficient, well-trained pilot is going to take at least one, and probably 2-3 seconds to go from chime/message to action initiation and that adds airspeed and gives up runway if you decide to stop.

 

[MoreDaysOff]

The high speed regine has a floating definition. What's fast on one runway is slow on another. Just one part of the dynamics of this very important topic.

Bt the way, the BRAKE OVHT is a Warning Message, is not inhibited and decreases your braking capability (on which your RTO performance is based).

 

[xjcaptain]

This is a debate that has gone on for years. There will never be an all encompassing list of what to abort for when under what conditions. My viewpoint is this. Aborting below 80 (or some other arbitrary number to signify a low speed abort) will not hurt you. It comes down to operational efficiency. Can the flight continue safely? Would the light have caused an air return, or just a write-up prior to the next flight. Either way...continue or abort, safety is served. High speed aborts are another animal entirely. Look at the stats...a high speed abort is a VERY RISKY MANEUVER. Whatever you abort for darn well better be for something riskier than the abort itself. What that might be can be debated to death, but it depends on the aircraft, the airport (overruns, runway length, braking action etc.), the weather, the crew (rested or not, experience etc.) I look at it like the doctors oath. "First do no harm". You never trade a small risk for a larger one.

 

[mesaba13]

XJ-I am with you for the most part but I'm not sure I like a philosophy that says there is really no need to abort for any amber cautions below 80 knots. To me there are some amber cautions in the 900 that I really dont wan't to deal with in the air when I knew about them at 30 knots.

 

[xjcaptain]

XJ-I am with you for the most part but I'm not sure I like a philosophy that says there is really no need to abort for any amber cautions below 80 knots. To me there are some amber cautions in the 900 that I really dont wan't to deal with in the air when I knew about them at 30 knots.

I agree with you, and am not saying to never abort for an amber when below 80. All I am saying is it depends on which one. If I get an ice caution....I'm going, other ambers maybe not. My point is that the decision to abort when below 80 is almost always very low risk. Some however may 2nd guess the decision if it is a minor issue. Aborting for an ice caution may not be seen as "efficient" by management when it turns into delays etc. Above 80 has the potential to hurt people so it should be taken very seriously. The risk of the abort can never be greater than the risk of flying with the malfunction. If it is then you are better off to continue the take-off.